OK, I've been reading a bit about the megasquirt efi system.
Is it a huge task to convert my 4.4 with twin SUs to EFI?
Can I rob parts from another Rover engine and then use the magasquirt?
The thing (79 RR) also runs on gas. So can gas & EFI be combined?
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4.4 EFI
Moderator: Micka
4.4 EFI
Harry
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
No, yes and yes.
Get a fuel rail inlet manifold and fuel system from a wrecked injected RR or Disco. That way the parts are reasonably standard and easy to get replacements for.
Don't worry about getting the expensive air flow meter, as MS will bypass this.
Your LPG can be added with a diffuser ring to the inlet of the throttle body on the injected manifold. You will also need to get a different LPG converter to suit. Try the gas system of a late model cab wreck.
Check the meagasquirt and my sick 3.5EFI threads.
Get a fuel rail inlet manifold and fuel system from a wrecked injected RR or Disco. That way the parts are reasonably standard and easy to get replacements for.
Don't worry about getting the expensive air flow meter, as MS will bypass this.
Your LPG can be added with a diffuser ring to the inlet of the throttle body on the injected manifold. You will also need to get a different LPG converter to suit. Try the gas system of a late model cab wreck.
Check the meagasquirt and my sick 3.5EFI threads.
There are two different types of convertor.
One is a negative feed , the other (funnily enough) is a positive feed convertor. I can't remeber which is which, it's been about six years since I did my last LPG conversion.
A diffuser ring feed system on EFI applications uses one type.
The gas carby (Impco, etc) uses the other.
Then you can get those super dooper Gas Research carbies, but I can't recall which convertor these run either!
Call Brian Newton at Newgas in Sydney, this guy is a LPG tuning and installation wizard.
One is a negative feed , the other (funnily enough) is a positive feed convertor. I can't remeber which is which, it's been about six years since I did my last LPG conversion.
A diffuser ring feed system on EFI applications uses one type.
The gas carby (Impco, etc) uses the other.
Then you can get those super dooper Gas Research carbies, but I can't recall which convertor these run either!
Call Brian Newton at Newgas in Sydney, this guy is a LPG tuning and installation wizard.
I can't recall what the exact differences are, but there is a difference. Don't know if its a big one.......Also depends on how you convert the carby set up to the EFI car.
I know it has to do with the carby actually having a diaphragm to regulate fuel delivery and the diffuser ring just sucks it through with engine vacuum.
I know it has to do with the carby actually having a diaphragm to regulate fuel delivery and the diffuser ring just sucks it through with engine vacuum.
Bush65 wrote:Harry, I guess you know that you will need spaces to fit a rover inlet manifold to a 4.4 motor.
The distance the injectors are located from the head can effect the power/torque curve of a motor - would be interesting to know exactly how much difference this will make. I remember seeing some BMW 2l tourer manifolds with 2 or 3 different injector positions.
_____________________________________________________________
RUFF wrote:Beally STFU Your becoming a real PITA.
Well the hardware you need is basically any Rover V8 EFi setup, without the ECU or Air Flow Meter. You'll need to source a GM temperature sensor but I guess that's easier for you guys than it is over here.
If you DO end up with an ECU and air flow meter, just sell 'em on eBay, you should make your money back on the whole project
If you DO end up with an ECU and air flow meter, just sell 'em on eBay, you should make your money back on the whole project
[url=http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr]109 in a million pieces - it shall rise again![/url]
Bush65 wrote:Harry, I guess you know that you will need spaces to fit a rover inlet manifold to a 4.4 motor.
It already has the spacers, so it looks like I just get the parts and fit them.
Last edited by Ralf the RR on Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harry
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
fridgefreezer wrote:Well the hardware you need is basically any Rover V8 EFi setup, without the ECU or Air Flow Meter.
So I need the manifold, injectors, fuel rail, fuel pressure reg, etc.
Are they single point or multipoint?
I assume there is a single throttle body.
This is where the gas outlet thingy goes, and I'll also need the inlet air plumbing and filter stuff. I assume the AFM is in this plumbing stuff.
Why is an AFM not required? How does the megasquirt know this info? Does it need to know?
Is there a MAP sensor instead?
I assume I need a different fuel pump.
The vehicle has sill tanks, and utilises the original fuel pump.
fridgefreezer wrote: You'll need to source a GM temperature sensor but I guess that's easier for you guys than it is over here
Is this in addition to the temp gauge sensor?
The thermostat housing already has 2 sensors. One mounted vertically, and one horizontally.
Why a GM one? My guess is the price!
Harry
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
Yes and multipoint.
Yes, single TB.
Run a snorkel and any air cleaner you want.
AFM replaced by MAP.
Get standard EFI pump from same wreck. May need to update the tank????Pump lives in the tank. Fuel filter for EFI lives on top of the DS chassis rail in front of the axle.
Is in addition to temp sensor.
MS has been standardised to use the GM one as it is available globally and the MS is American.
Yes, single TB.
Run a snorkel and any air cleaner you want.
AFM replaced by MAP.
Get standard EFI pump from same wreck. May need to update the tank????Pump lives in the tank. Fuel filter for EFI lives on top of the DS chassis rail in front of the axle.
Is in addition to temp sensor.
MS has been standardised to use the GM one as it is available globally and the MS is American.
Here's a photo of a Lucas EFi setup fitted to my dad's driveway:
Photos of fitting it to my 109 are here, the photos of MegaSquirting it are here.
Yes - it's one injector per cylinder.
The TB is a single one, you can fit any one you want from the 3.5 to the 4.6 versions, there are different diameters available.
Yes, no stupid flappy air flow meter - just a MAP sensor in the MS ECU. You'll need a length of PVC or nylon hose and some way of fitting it, I use a push-fit pneumatic/hydraulic adapter screwed into a spare port on the plenum:
Either change your in-tank pump for an EFi one or just fit a universal inline EFi pump (as fitted to some Jaguars etc.). A favorite is a VW Golf (Rabbit) GTi one as they have a swirl pot built-in. Might not quite be up to a 4.4 V8 though. I'd advise fitting a swirl pot, there is a standard LR part (see photo) that does very nicely:
The MS is standardised to use GM sensors, you can use any sensors you want as long as you tell the MS - the MSEFI forum will be able to help. There's a bit of software (EasyTherm) that can calculate the required information about whatever sensor you want to use just by taking a couple of measurements and feeding in the results. It'll even re-compile the MS source code and upload it to your ECU for you.
The sensor in question is the Inlet Air Temp (IAT), which on the Lucas system is inside the air flow meter. Since your air flow meter will be in the bin (or, more cunningly, on eBay for £100) you need a new one. I used a universal one from RS components which cost me all of £1.50, so probaly more like £0.50 from any other electronics supplier. Details are on my website.
My MS is set up to use the Rover water temp sensor, as fitted to the EFi manifold. This is NOT the one that drives the temp guage, it's a separate thing. You need to download the cobrov35.msq settings file from the MegaSquirt yahoo! group. Again, the MSEFI forums should be able to help you.
Photos of fitting it to my 109 are here, the photos of MegaSquirting it are here.
Yes - it's one injector per cylinder.
The TB is a single one, you can fit any one you want from the 3.5 to the 4.6 versions, there are different diameters available.
Yes, no stupid flappy air flow meter - just a MAP sensor in the MS ECU. You'll need a length of PVC or nylon hose and some way of fitting it, I use a push-fit pneumatic/hydraulic adapter screwed into a spare port on the plenum:
Either change your in-tank pump for an EFi one or just fit a universal inline EFi pump (as fitted to some Jaguars etc.). A favorite is a VW Golf (Rabbit) GTi one as they have a swirl pot built-in. Might not quite be up to a 4.4 V8 though. I'd advise fitting a swirl pot, there is a standard LR part (see photo) that does very nicely:
The MS is standardised to use GM sensors, you can use any sensors you want as long as you tell the MS - the MSEFI forum will be able to help. There's a bit of software (EasyTherm) that can calculate the required information about whatever sensor you want to use just by taking a couple of measurements and feeding in the results. It'll even re-compile the MS source code and upload it to your ECU for you.
The sensor in question is the Inlet Air Temp (IAT), which on the Lucas system is inside the air flow meter. Since your air flow meter will be in the bin (or, more cunningly, on eBay for £100) you need a new one. I used a universal one from RS components which cost me all of £1.50, so probaly more like £0.50 from any other electronics supplier. Details are on my website.
My MS is set up to use the Rover water temp sensor, as fitted to the EFi manifold. This is NOT the one that drives the temp guage, it's a separate thing. You need to download the cobrov35.msq settings file from the MegaSquirt yahoo! group. Again, the MSEFI forums should be able to help you.
[url=http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr]109 in a million pieces - it shall rise again![/url]
Thanks guys for all the info.
I'm now armed with enough knowledge to tackle the task.
Will probably be a Xmas project.
Not keen on pulling the sill tanks apart to install a pump in each.
Can I fit a single external pump fed by solenoid switched fuel lines?
I'm now armed with enough knowledge to tackle the task.
Will probably be a Xmas project.
Not keen on pulling the sill tanks apart to install a pump in each.
Can I fit a single external pump fed by solenoid switched fuel lines?
Harry
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
79 Rangie (his name is Ralf) 4.4 dual fuel, with plenty of other mods.
Oils leaks are a factory option to prevent rust!
I'm using a Facet red-top fuel pump - it's an aftermarket one designed for carbed vehicles and lifts fuel well enough, you could fit one for each tank if you were feeling saucy.
How are you going to route your fuel return with two tanks? You could end up filling one tank from the other whilst driving!
How are you going to route your fuel return with two tanks? You could end up filling one tank from the other whilst driving!
[url=http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr]109 in a million pieces - it shall rise again![/url]
Harry, i'm tackling the same prob- twin sill tanks with solenoid switch to feed 1 efi pump. I was thinking of using the original pump as a lift pump to some sort of swirl pot then a vl dunnydore external pump to the fuel rail. I just need to find or make a suitable swirl pot, i dont want anything too big as i want to mount it out of the engine bay somewhere. the other option would be to fit larger diameter outlets to the tanks and get a fuel switch with larger diameter fittings and use just the 1 pump.
Saddle up tonto, its the not so loanrangie! . 98 TDI DISCO lightly modded with more to come.
Sorry - didn't explain properly - I'm using the Facet to lift fuel from tank to swirl pot in engine bay, then this drops out of the pot into the EFi pump. The carb fuel pumps definitely do NOT provide enough pressure for EFi!
There's a co over here that sells twin tank switchy valve things that switch the supply & return lines, they're mechnical (eg you have to physically turn the valve yourself rather than electronically) but would be ideal. I'd be surprised if you can't find a similar thing over there.
There's a co over here that sells twin tank switchy valve things that switch the supply & return lines, they're mechnical (eg you have to physically turn the valve yourself rather than electronically) but would be ideal. I'd be surprised if you can't find a similar thing over there.
[url=http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr]109 in a million pieces - it shall rise again![/url]
Hi fridgefreezer !
That thing with the swirl pot is new for me and an absolut excellent solution in my case.
Because I own one of the first built onetens from 1983 I still have the version with the external fuel pump/ filter that sits on the side of the frame ( .... not tank internal like later models )
The pump here is similar to the Facet one and I have an additional red top one in the garage !
The cool thing is that I dont have to touch this set up and the installation of the petrol heating....just install this swirl pot and the efi pump.
Is there anything special on that pot or is it just a pot with 3 fittings....means could I build one myself ??? (...just if I don´t find a cheap used one )
An other good thing is that this set up will awoid the problem of sucking air when the fuel tank becomes to empty.
My fuel tank doesn´t have internal walls ( what are they called in English ???) like the later ones. So I was already worring about this!
Thanx for an other step forward !!!
That thing with the swirl pot is new for me and an absolut excellent solution in my case.
Because I own one of the first built onetens from 1983 I still have the version with the external fuel pump/ filter that sits on the side of the frame ( .... not tank internal like later models )
The pump here is similar to the Facet one and I have an additional red top one in the garage !
The cool thing is that I dont have to touch this set up and the installation of the petrol heating....just install this swirl pot and the efi pump.
Is there anything special on that pot or is it just a pot with 3 fittings....means could I build one myself ??? (...just if I don´t find a cheap used one )
An other good thing is that this set up will awoid the problem of sucking air when the fuel tank becomes to empty.
My fuel tank doesn´t have internal walls ( what are they called in English ???) like the later ones. So I was already worring about this!
Thanx for an other step forward !!!
[img]http://www.flaggenserver.de/diverse2/raceswkariert0.gif[/img]
OneTenV8,
The internal walls are called baffles. I guess your setup is the same as mine as my 109 started as a 6cyl so had the same facet external pump as you. You'll probably want to fit the bigger facet pump to cope with the V8.
The pot isn't anything mega special - a lot of people use old power steering reservoirs to make them. Have a look on this thread on the MSEFI forum which contains more than you ever wanted to know about swirl pots: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3945
If you can, try to place a restriction (a friend is using a pen cap!) in the return line from the swirl pot. This will keep it slightly pressurised and help "force feed" the EFi pump. It should also limit the amount of petrol that just goes round and round the circuit without being used and gaining heat. The swirl pot only needs to be able to get rid of vapour so restricting the return a bit won't hurt it.
I have fitted a load of in-line universal filters in my fuel setup, this not only keeps things filtered but allows me to see the fuel flow, and provides a bit of resistance to the return line.
The internal walls are called baffles. I guess your setup is the same as mine as my 109 started as a 6cyl so had the same facet external pump as you. You'll probably want to fit the bigger facet pump to cope with the V8.
The pot isn't anything mega special - a lot of people use old power steering reservoirs to make them. Have a look on this thread on the MSEFI forum which contains more than you ever wanted to know about swirl pots: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3945
If you can, try to place a restriction (a friend is using a pen cap!) in the return line from the swirl pot. This will keep it slightly pressurised and help "force feed" the EFi pump. It should also limit the amount of petrol that just goes round and round the circuit without being used and gaining heat. The swirl pot only needs to be able to get rid of vapour so restricting the return a bit won't hurt it.
I have fitted a load of in-line universal filters in my fuel setup, this not only keeps things filtered but allows me to see the fuel flow, and provides a bit of resistance to the return line.
[url=http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr]109 in a million pieces - it shall rise again![/url]
Hello Isuzurover !
Poor guy! Are you suffering from this s_h_i_t German weather just as much as I do ???
I live in Nürnberg ( nuremberg ).
And yes you are right.
After all my investigation work I couldn´t find any oneten in Germany with a lower serialnumber than mine has.
My landy was brought over from England in 2000.
Seeing that it is an RHD, county station wagon delivered to England with a 83 registration, it is more than sure that it is one from the first half year production of ´83.
@ fridgefreezer
thank you for this and for taking me in your base map list ( MS thread ).
This weekend I will do a MS weekend....read as much as I can about it ( on your homepage and in the MS forum ) and than order the parts ( seeing that the US Dollar is quite good with the Euro )
Poor guy! Are you suffering from this s_h_i_t German weather just as much as I do ???
I live in Nürnberg ( nuremberg ).
And yes you are right.
After all my investigation work I couldn´t find any oneten in Germany with a lower serialnumber than mine has.
My landy was brought over from England in 2000.
Seeing that it is an RHD, county station wagon delivered to England with a 83 registration, it is more than sure that it is one from the first half year production of ´83.
@ fridgefreezer
thank you for this and for taking me in your base map list ( MS thread ).
This weekend I will do a MS weekend....read as much as I can about it ( on your homepage and in the MS forum ) and than order the parts ( seeing that the US Dollar is quite good with the Euro
)
Last edited by OneTenV8 on Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[img]http://www.flaggenserver.de/diverse2/raceswkariert0.gif[/img]
Yes the weather is a bit crappy at the moment - but I am surprised it isn't colder yet (this is my first winter here).
It must be fun driving a RHD car on the roads here. So if it is a 1983 model yours must have sliding windows, and does it have the part-time LT230 option or is it constant 4x4? Sounds interesting. Feel free to drop in for a beer if you are in Karlsruhe.
It must be fun driving a RHD car on the roads here. So if it is a 1983 model yours must have sliding windows, and does it have the part-time LT230 option or is it constant 4x4? Sounds interesting. Feel free to drop in for a beer if you are in Karlsruhe.
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RUFF wrote:Beally STFU Your becoming a real PITA.
@ Isuzurover
That was fast !
Sliding windows YES....LT230 NO.
The first onetens had the LT95 ( 4-speed) with integral transverbox.
But I have a new LT85/LT230 ready to be build in soon.
The same to you when you are close to Nürnberg!
Here you go !!!!
Oh ! Before you get all confused.....the round series III heater intake on the side is not original.
I fixed it to lower the tempreture under the bonnet!
That was fast !
Sliding windows YES....LT230 NO.
The first onetens had the LT95 ( 4-speed) with integral transverbox.
But I have a new LT85/LT230 ready to be build in soon.
The same to you when you are close to Nürnberg!
Here you go !!!!
Oh ! Before you get all confused.....the round series III heater intake on the side is not original.
I fixed it to lower the tempreture under the bonnet!
[img]http://www.flaggenserver.de/diverse2/raceswkariert0.gif[/img]
Wow - that looks great. I forgot it had the V8/LT95.
What oil will you run in the LT85? I run an oil called Castrol VMX80 - GL4 rated and specially made for certain 5-speed gearboxes to improve shifting - It pours like water. It definitely improved the cold-shifting when I changed to that oil, but there is still a noticeable difference between winter and summer shifting when cold.
I have friends who use Mobil 1 synthetic who report similar benefits with mobil 1 - but VMX 80 was recommended to me by Mal Story (from maxi drive) who rebuilt my LT85 (before I bought the truck).
What oil will you run in the LT85? I run an oil called Castrol VMX80 - GL4 rated and specially made for certain 5-speed gearboxes to improve shifting - It pours like water. It definitely improved the cold-shifting when I changed to that oil, but there is still a noticeable difference between winter and summer shifting when cold.
I have friends who use Mobil 1 synthetic who report similar benefits with mobil 1 - but VMX 80 was recommended to me by Mal Story (from maxi drive) who rebuilt my LT85 (before I bought the truck).
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RUFF wrote:Beally STFU Your becoming a real PITA.
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