replacement of load leveller

Post by **swamp** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:03 pm

Ive got an idea about replacing my worn out load leveller.
when loaded up for camping (when you take nearly everything) the rear of the car sags even with 220lb springs.
Also on steep inclines the weight transfer loads up the rear and the front becomes very light.(rear squat).
The theory is to replace the load leveller with a driver controlled pnuematic set up.
In the shed i've got a pair of monroe air shocks (fab up some brackets and run both side by side)
Option B use a firestone or similar air bag.
Anyone with even half an opinion put your 2c worth in.

regards
Michael

Post by **cmcd** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:11 pm

There's a bloke in Sth Africa that put a Mazda coil spring in the rear to replace his self-leveller. It's on Google.

Why not ditch the leveller, and get some polyairs (or similar)? From what I've heard, the self leveller doesn't even work when you've lifted > 2 inches..

Post by **swamp** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:49 pm

Thanks CMCD ,there are afew guys that i know that are running a coil spring in place of the load leveller, .I would like to manually control it.
I spoke to a firestone rep at the 4wd show and he was very helpfull, ifi gave him specs he will give some recomendations.
Also spoke to polyair rep and he was the exact opposite ( none of my money going to polyair)
I am unsure if it will increase antisquat but there are better minds than mine out there that will help me on this.
regards
michael.

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:46 pm

Interesting idea - I like it.

I have seen the coil spring conversions - using a gemini coil or similar. I have also heard of people filling their coils with tennis balls when they need a higher spring rate on a touring trip - every few days you must add an extra tennis ball or 2.

I don't see why you couldn't do what you suggest. Try and contact Syd King at Queensland Rollers and Liners - he is in the Brisbane LR club and I think his company has made air-bags in the past for rangies. I think he might be interested in a project like this.

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:17 am

LandRover took yet another backwood step when they decided to drop the load leveller . The articulation performance of leveller equipped or auxillary central springs on Rovers is far superior to the later non equipped vehicles. And Yes hillclimbing ability due to additional anti squat is also better.
bill.

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:16 am

I will be very interested to see how you go with this.

Post by **HSV Rangie** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:21 am

I have often thought about fitting an air bag in there.

just to slack to do it.

Michael.

Post by **Maxtd5def** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:22 am

Don't dismiss polyairs just coz of one bad experience with one sales rep.

The set I had in the last car worked well, and didn't give any trouble.

Polyairs don't put that bending stress on the middle of the axle either.

Regards
Max P

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:55 pm

daddylonglegs wrote:The articulation performance of leveller equipped or auxillary central springs on Rovers is far superior to the later non equipped vehicles.
bill.

While I agree Bill that, all other things being equal, a county 110 with a load leveller will flex better than a defender 110 without one - due to the softer outboard springs - I have been told (but not checked it myself) that the suspension links have more available downwards travel if you remove the leveler. Do you know if this is true?

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:42 am

My merory is a bit fuzzy Ben but I think the last time I replaced a load leveller on a Rover i had to disconnect both dampers to get enough droop to unload the leveller. At any rate I think the leveller would only limit total droop of the axle rather than articulation with standard length dampers.
One of the specialist high performance Range Rover outfitters in England in the Eighties used to replace the load leveller with 2 adjustable air struts.
bill.

Post by **RANUKI** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 3:55 pm

I can confirn that you can obtain more artic without the leveler however as ISUZUROVER said it is also about coil spring rates. If you lift your suspension 2" the leveler effectivly becomes the binding point in your travel arch as it is at full travel. Try it with a standard rangie, ramp it with and the disconnect 1 end of leveler and it you will a reasonable differance. I does hewever help conrtol anti-squat so your can will climb better with it.

An airbag would be a great idea as it would allow full motion and yet still offer the load and anti-squat effect you are after. Clever idea..

Ben

Post by **Dave J** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:41 pm

I don't thinkn that a direct replacement with an airbag is a simple operation. You would need to take out at least one ball joint as otherwise the airbag will just spit out to one side. And then, I don't know how well an airbag will take the angles that a rangie rear can put out.

I think a better option is the air shockie or simlar as these can be swivel jointed at both ends and are restrained from sideways "spitting". Also an air shockie provides some damping where an airbag does not. But one is unlikely to be enough so how do you mount two? Use bolt ended shockies (like RRC fronts) and bolt to a plate each end which can be mounted on the ball of the original load leveller. Except, what happens when one shockie is a little more tired than the other, the whole setup could bend...

I think that the key is to find 1 air shockie that is big / strong enough to do the job on it's own.

DJ

Website · Post by **Maggot4x4** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:34 am

What about a light duty coil and a polyair?

Post by **Bush65** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:43 am

Dave J wrote:I don't thinkn that a direct replacement with an airbag is a simple operation. You would need to take out at least one ball joint as otherwise the airbag will just spit out to one side. And then, I don't know how well an airbag will take the angles that a rangie rear can put out.

I think a better option is the air shockie or simlar as these can be swivel jointed at both ends and are restrained from sideways "spitting". Also an air shockie provides some damping where an airbag does not. But one is unlikely to be enough so how do you mount two? Use bolt ended shockies (like RRC fronts) and bolt to a plate each end which can be mounted on the ball of the original load leveller. Except, what happens when one shockie is a little more tired than the other, the whole setup could bend...

I think that the key is to find 1 air shockie that is big / strong enough to do the job on it's own.

DJ

I agree with your thoughts on the airbag problems.

The stock leveler, as far as I can see is similar to a big air shockie. Probably without dampening though. I've got a couple laying around that I might look at modifying one day, othewise may try the coil spring conversion.

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:03 pm

Is there some way you could adapt the load leveller to be manually controlled by the driver using compressed air? If it has good seals inside this should be possible with a few valves and regulators.

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:20 pm

Apparently the standard load leveller has a load capacity of around 1200 pounds but because of the angle at which it is mounted you would need a pneumatic cylider or air bag of around twice this capacity to be equal. An air cylinder with a 5 inch or 100mm diameter piston would have a capacity of 2000 pounds at 100 psi air pressure . When I was playing around with central springing on Nigels hybrid I had a total springrate of 370 pounds per inch and 17 inches long with inner and outer opposite wound coils and this wasn't any where near enough in the standard load leveller location.
Bill.

Post by **swamp** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:51 pm

Bill, when you were running the centrall spring I thought you were not using any outboard springs.If I run outbord springs I sholdn't need such a high rate central air set up (correct me if i'm wrong).
I had a look at a central coil sprung vehicle on the weekend , the pilot installed it to reduce bum sag. There was a lot of lateral deflection in the spring so I understand Dave J's concerns.
Ben I dont really understand the technicalities of how the load leveller works,but I really like your idea as the unit is designed to be in that position and works well ,if i fab brackets up it will be trial and error.
Anyone who knows the intricacies of the unit please let me know.

Post by **Bush65** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:34 pm

swamp wrote:Bill, when you were running the centrall spring I thought you were not using any outboard springs.If I run outbord springs I sholdn't need such a high rate central air set up (correct me if i'm wrong).
I had a look at a central coil sprung vehicle on the weekend , the pilot installed it to reduce bum sag. There was a lot of lateral deflection in the spring so I understand Dave J's concerns.
Ben I dont really understand the technicalities of how the load leveller works,but I really like your idea as the unit is designed to be in that position and works well ,if i fab brackets up it will be trial and error.
Anyone who knows the intricacies of the unit please let me know.

I've pulled a couple out but haven't pulled any apart.

They appear to be a gas charged cylinder that operates as a spring.

The gas pressure precharges the leveller while fully extended.

The effect of the precharge is: When there is no load in the back of the vehicle the leveller is fully extended and the gas forces, what I assume is a piston against the end of the leveller. As the load in the back is increased the leveller remains fully extended until the load exceeds the precharge pressure multiplied by the area of the piston.

Post by **swamp** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:58 pm

Thanks John youv'e shed abit of light on the subject for me although i'm still a bit perplexed on the whole senario.I was wondering if there was any drawings on the subject.I am assuming from your post that it uses some of the principals of hydraulics ie multiplication of force.
keep the info coming
Regards
Michael.

Post by **daddylonglegs** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:16 pm

You are right Michael, I wasn't running outboard springs at the time, but I was just trying to explain that to be equivelant to the standard load leveller you will need an air spring much larger than would at first seem necessary. I do not think the load leveller would have sufficient piston area to power it with compressed air unless you ran it at about 200psi, and the largest diameter anything that will fit between the arms of the "A" frame is about 5.5 inches or approx 140 mm. I had to spread the arms about 13 mm to fit the coil spring .
Bill.

Post by **JohnS** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:55 pm

Chaps,
Many moons ago I made an enquiry of the AirBag Man about a custom airbag replacement for the load leveller. They felt it could be done for about $1000. I did not follow it up, but I reckon a professionally fitted truck airbag would do the job nicely and give you nice control.

Maybe one of yoos should go ask the Air Bag Man again

JohnS
1985 3.9d 110 County

Post by **swamp** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:28 pm

Considering another option at the moment.
Does anyone know the difference between a RR load leveller
and one from a 110 that has a remote canister, i'm assuming that the 110 unit has a higher rate , longer stroke or better design.
Thinking of rebuilding the best load leveller available,and running it with some adjustable rear shocks,(KISS -keep it simple stupid)

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:31 pm

Don't know much about them except I have one, which is buggered and needs a rebuild (and no you can't have it). I forgot that the rangie ones didn't have the extra cannister. Obviously the 110 model would need to handle a higher load than the rangie one.

Post by **JohnS** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:56 pm

The idea of rebuilding a 110 load leveller and then modifying it to apply air pressure to adjust it for the desired height sounds appealing. If they hold gas pressure pretty well, no reason why you could apply air pressure from an external source. This would mean minimal mechanical changes as well.

I know a guy in Perth who overhauls the load levellers. I'll ask him opinion on the matter.

JohnS

Post by **p76rangie** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:59 pm

They strongly recommend that you do not pull load levellers apart. Aparrantly the gas inside is at very high pressure. The device is not just a pressurised shock, it actually pumps it self up as to drive. That is, load you car and the back drops. Go for a drive around the block and it will be back up to level. Somehow it knows where the level point is and adjusts it internal pressure to lower or raise the vehicle to this point.

Ian

PS I understand that the 110 ones are longer and are therefore better for a spring lifted vehicle.

Post by **swamp** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:22 pm

When we raise the suspension by 50mm I am assuming the piston part of the LL is 50mm (or the equivilant of the angle it runs off relevant to the arc of travel of the suspension) further back from its original start point in its self pressureisation, hence why it is not as effective in lifted suspension.
This is all theory, if LL is like a shock absorber and has fixed compressed and extended lengths (I assume it is) has any one got any ideas in regard to returning it to factory spec
regards
Michael

Post by **Bush65** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:07 pm

I partly dissasembled a crook leveler today. Couldn't get it all apart.

The head with neck bush for the piston rod unscrews from the outer cylinder tube.

The piston that carries all of the load is only about 36mm dia, so operating pressures must be very high. This piston runs in a cylinder fixed to the centre of the leveler. I was unable to remove this inner cylinder tube. In the base of the inner cylinder, there is a castellated piece - maybe it unscrews with a special tool that engages the castellated slots, or these maybe just passages.

There is a rod about 10mm dia in the centre of the inner cylinder that runs inside a bore in the piston and piston rod. The rod is fixed to the base of the cylinder somehow (I couldn't remove it) - it rotates freely and tilts slightly (for alignment). This rod has a allen head plug in the end and has a hole across (diametrical) below the plug. I would guess there may be a valve in there. I couldn't unscrew the plug - no way to hold the rod from rotating.

There is a steel disc between the inner and outer cylinder. This disc is fixed at about mid height with a spacer tube. I couldn't remove it.

There was a rubber bladder in the space between the inner and outer tubes and between the disc and the head. This was badly perished where it fits over the cylinder rod and broke up easily. There was a small quantity of oil in the bladder. The bladder also seals between the steel disc and the inside wall of the outer cylinder tube - I assume it is part of a bladder on the other side of the disc.

There are 2 small phillip head screws through the wall of the outer cylinder - 1 either side of the steel disc. I assume these are to bleed air trapped between the bladders and the outer cylinder tube. Both screws released some gas under pressure when I lossened them and allowed the piston rod to be pushed in easily. Before, I could push the rod into it using most of my weight.

I think Ian, aka p76rangie, may be right, that it pumps itself up somehow - I just can't determine how, from what I was able pull apart.

I had thought an old leveller could be modified into an air adjustable device for carrying extra load. Now I am thinking along the lines of a coil spring with a polyair spring inside to replace the leveller.

I like the air bag spring idea, but not with the ball end mounts of the load leveller, because as DJ said it would spit out one side.

Post by **Philip A** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:15 pm

Fellows, i am a newbie on your forum but have been on tyhe Rangie , Discovery forum site for years, as has Aquarangie.
Look at http://www.sachs.co.jp/owx_medien/media40/4085.pdf
It answers all the questions you are speculating on.
Regards Philip A

Post by **LukeV** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:43 pm

Good to see you on these board PhilipA. What a wealth of knowledge you bring with you, especially for the younguns like myself

Cheers,

Luke

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:45 pm

Thanks for posting the info Phillip, very interesting.

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