DIY crawler t-case

[Projects]

Just wondering if anyone has seen this method of making a lower ratio t-case and if this is doable on a Vitara?
http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~jeff/xfer2.htm

[N*A*M]

it's pretty old news man but i doubt it can work in a vitara

you need a post '85 sierra tcase and gears from an '84 sierra tcase

it's cheap but so are rockhoppers. for the cost of installing series 3 rockhoppers, there's no reason to bother with a rocklobster conversion.

[grimbo]

I doubt that the Vitara cases have the variety of gears that Jeff is talking about. In the long run I reckon you will be better off buying a rockhopper which is warrantied etc. You could get into the whole custom thing but for a Vitara I don't reckon it's the way to go as it appears yours is not going to be a huge custom job.

[Beastmavster]

I looked at all the transfer case + diff ratio options and put it in the too hard basket as no combination of 1 litre + 1.3 Litre + Vitara parts was gonna make it work at least on a carby vitara with 5.12 diffs standard.

If you have efi Vitara you can go up from 4.6 to 5.12, but that's it unless you look at Hilux diffs there is a 5.89 option in them I beleive. Or you can get some custom diff bits and go form 41/8 to 41/7 to get 5.86.

Hence you see my interest in where that 43 tooth crownwheel came from.....


No options that I can see that can be grabbed from a Zook wrecker - if you find one from something else that fits let me know.


I did see a site that does an underdrive for a vitara if you have the money - heaps better than a Rockhopper - a double transfer case and 4wd LOW LOW as well as 4wd High LOw and 2WD High LOW options......

Sicne I can't justify the money, my intended plan is more power to make up for gearing......

[Projects]

I know that the 1989 1.3 carb Sidekick in the U.S. had a 5.62 and Calmini offers a 5.83 aftermarket and I also believe there is a 5.38 but don't know what Suzuki that came out of.

[Beastmavster]

I know that the 1989 1.3 carb Sidekick in the U.S. had a 5.62 and Calmini offers a 5.83 aftermarket and I also believe there is a 5.38 but don't know what Suzuki that came out of.

5.83 ould be nice but the price is silly. I looked at them too.

For those who are saying "just buy a rockhopper" have you noticed the Vitara rockhoppers are twice the price?

It isn't cos of the cost of manufacture (which would be similar) it's cos there's not any other alternatives out there for the Vitara.

I think the real question should be who wouldn't be doing a rocklobster (or 1 litre Sierra transfer case) if sierra rockhopper sets were twice the price they are??

Not knocking them for their product but I can't see the justification in the price differential between the Sierra and the Vitara.

I'll look at getting some low ratio gears manufactured up myself soon since I have a spare transfer case to play with.

A few years back when I was "in the trade" I know I could buy custom gearbox gears for a much much much smaller amount than what they rockhopper guys want, so I'll see how much they're gonna cost now. Dunno if it's gonna work out cheaper but I'll give it a look. I might also be able to choose the most suitable ratio for my needs that way.


Anyone intersted let me know.

[Dozoor]

Did you really look inside both these transfer cases

[thaoldman]

I am guessing that if the Vitara rockhopper was being sold in the same quantities as the sierra version then the price would reflect this. You can't expect a low volume product to sell for the same price as a high volume product.

[Dozoor]

ha old dude how are ya,

[Liam]

Just wondering if anyone has seen this method of making a lower ratio t-case and if this is doable on a Vitara?

No its not, the gear pattern is unique enough thet theres nothing else to use.

Sicne I can't justify the money, my intended plan is more power to make up for gearing

You haven't really thought this through have you? When is power cheaper than equivilant gearing and how can one substitute for the other- it doesn't really work like that. Forget what the import guys claim-Power costs money and big power costs big money.

I can't see the justification in the price differential between the Sierra and the Vitara.

Ever asked- I'd have no problem telling you.

I think the real question should be who wouldn't be doing a rocklobster (or 1 litre Sierra transfer case) if sierra rockhopper sets were twice the price they are??

Actually, they were. Quantities were low, costs were high, technology wasn't as available and nobody else was prepared to throw money at a project with no guarantee of a return. They were rountinely all sold before the next batch could be delivered.

Not knocking them for their product

yeah yah reckon?

I'll look at getting some low ratio gears manufactured up myself soon since I have a spare transfer case to play with.

Knock yourself out- getting the existing gears measured will cost, getting the new gears genearted will cost ( no the dinky program your mate gets you wont do it) having the drawings prepared will cost, The gearcutter won't have a suzuki spec cutter- this'll really cost.
Then you'll run into the big problems... I'll let you figure all that out for yourself but it involves the edge of the synchros and the edge of the gears being about 2.9 mm apart. Then no doubt you'll want sell some of these to get some money back (that first set will cost around 15 grand plus you'll need anything up to 25k software) problem is, ever wanker will want to copy them.

I know I could buy custom gearbox gears for a much much much smaller amount than what they rockhopper guys want,

Oh yeah...ask the question...the gear guy will say yeah no problem untill you get down there and show him whats required, these aren'tr the same liberty cut crap they knock up for every wanna be rally hero.

Do me a favour, next time you call saying nobody makes any neat stuff for my car, point out that your that guy that shits me.

[johnboy]

feel the cyber tension

[Beastmavster]

Sicne I can't justify the money, my intended plan is more power to make up for gearing

You haven't really thought this through have you? When is power cheaper than equivilant gearing and how can one substitute for the other- it doesn't really work like that. Forget what the import guys claim-Power costs money and big power costs big money.

Strangely changing over from a carby Vitara engine to an import 16V engine and injection peripherals will cost me much less than a rockhopper - now you one of the reasons why I find it hard to justify $1795 for a Vitara rockhopper.

I can't see the justification in the price differential between the Sierra and the Vitara.

Ever asked- I'd have no problem telling you.

I think the real question should be who wouldn't be doing a rocklobster (or 1 litre Sierra transfer case) if sierra rockhopper sets were twice the price they are??

Actually, they were. Quantities were low, costs were high, technology wasn't as available and nobody else was prepared to throw money at a project with no guarantee of a return. They were rountinely all sold before the next batch could be delivered.


This forum is a lot for people who like to have a go at doing it themselves. For those who don't want to there is an aftermarket that exists. I spent up until 2am Saturday morning penning an appropriate response, then I chucked it.

But the jist of it was this - you're trying to tell me it's impossible for someone to do it for a Vitara because it's "different"? Did GRP or representatives thereof go and tell everyone who was making their own sierra ones that it was going to cost them $35k to make their own so shut up and buy our $1800 product? Do you still try and tell people that it can't be done?

I'm even more cynical when there are other options for sierra's (eg diff centres from various Vitara's, 1 litre tranfer cases etc.

If it was $1000 then I'd be happy to pay for it, cos even if I could make it myself (or get some of the engineering guys to do so) it wouldn't be worth the stress.

However damn near $2000 buys a lot of stuff for someone on a tight budget, and to me it seems like you feel that 1) Vitara owners won't have a go at it themselves and 2) You're the only one in the market so you can charge what you damn well please.

I've made or modified from other vehicles (even other brands from Isuzu to datsun to toyota) to suit my Vitara and it all works pretty well. The two "aftermarket" pieces I had bought for my Vitara until now are without a doubt the two worst mods I have made on my car, so I won't mention the brands.

I bought my third this week end, and guess what - partial instructions, no template and no afetr hours support. Shoulda got a pipebender and done it myself.


Given this, I think I'll look at other options.


As you can see - if the price is wrong, I don't give a stuff whether or not you make them cos I ain't gonna buy them, so I aint gonna whinge about not being able to get one if the option is "can't afford" versus "doesn't exist".

[Midget]

As you can see - if the price is wrong, I don't give a stuff whether or not you make them cos I ain't gonna buy them, so I aint gonna whinge about not being able to get one if the option is "can't afford" versus "doesn't exist".[/quote]

You have just contradicted yourself by saying you won't whinge if you can't afford it or the product is not available.
You are whinging now are you not............

[Beastmavster]

As you can see - if the price is wrong, I don't give a stuff whether or not you make them cos I ain't gonna buy them, so I aint gonna whinge about not being able to get one if the option is "can't afford" versus "doesn't exist".

You have just contradicted yourself by saying you won't whinge if you can't afford it or the product is not available.
You are whinging now are you not............[/quote]


No.

I'm whinging cos he flamed me

[camskizook]

I think the full moon a few days ago has affected people! Flaming seems to be the rage atm!! You only gotta look at the calbah thread in General 4x4 atm!

Time for a nice cup of "green" tea everybody

[mud4b]

i agree.

[Liam]

I have attempted to explain it to you.
You're obviously a bit simple so i'll type slower;

The vit and the sierra gears are different.
They cost different amounts to make, demand is very different- economies of scale apply.
If we could make them cheaper we would.
If you dont want one thats fine.

Compare apples with apples- we're not selling you second hard parts are we. I'm sure you could do a engine transplant for $7.50 if you really tried- but youre not getting new parts, guaranteed and made to a high standard.

I dont give a rats how cynical you are- they cost more to make, we can't sell them for the same price.

As for the rocklobster case- I don't have any problem with them, but they are two SECOND HAND gears welded together. we're not giving you two second hand gears though are we?

2) You're the only one in the market so you can charge what you damn well please.

How simple are you?
They're not the only option, they're expensive to buy purely because they're expensive to make. They've never been a big seller, they cost a lot to develop, the market is small. If they were cheaper we'd sell more- trust me , we'd love to.

Swapping a later model engine in is a good start, but you're still going to have a gearing problem- especially with bigger tyres.

even if I could make it myself (or get some of the engineering guys to do so) it wouldn't be worth the stress.

Bit of a change of story isn't it? I thought you wanted to do it yourself?



Your casting aspersions that we're out to rip off poeple....life's going to be a long hard road for you if this is how you go about solving problems.

[Beastmavster]

I have attempted to explain it to you.
You're obviously a bit simple so i'll type slower;

The vit and the sierra gears are different.
They cost different amounts to make, demand is very different- economies of scale apply.
If we could make them cheaper we would.
If you dont want one thats fine.

Compare apples with apples- we're not selling you second hard parts are we. I'm sure you could do a engine transplant for $7.50 if you really tried- but youre not getting new parts, guaranteed and made to a high standard.

As for the rocklobster case- I don't have any problem with them, but they are two SECOND HAND gears welded together. we're not giving you two second hand gears though are we?

I understand that. However given the expectations of lifespan on this Vitara then I will not be overly conecerned about the risk of using second hand parts, so long as the secondhand parts are in good condition they will be in better condition than the rest of my car.


I've never suggested that some cobbled together transfer case is better than what you're selling - just that I can't justify the price for my car - but I could justify $1000. $1000 to $1800 is a big gap. I think I'd better point this out - my Vitara cost me $3000 before I started abusing the crap out of it and collected uncountable dents. $1800 on one mod is a massive overcapitalization on this car, and I'm not the average Vitara driver that you are trying to market this to.





Swapping a later model engine in is a good start, but you're still going to have a gearing problem- especially with bigger tyres.


Yeah - effective power isn't the only the only reason why you look at changing gearing - there's others like your crawl speed. Currently the gearing hasn't been a significant issue compared to say a Sierra - but I already had a 1.6 and stronger clutch I suppose - thats 1 point in the Vitara's favour over the sierra.

even if I could make it myself (or get some of the engineering guys to do so) it wouldn't be worth the stress.

Bit of a change of story isn't it? I thought you wanted to do it yourself?


I will do as much as I can, but I recognise when it's a job for the experts - I haven't touched a lathe in 8 years so I doubt I can get anywhere near close enough or accurate enough. I'll be more than happy enough to pull out and dissasemble, calculate gearing, measure and modify case clearances, swap speedo drive gears and all that stuff, bit I think any modification and machining of the gears can be done by a professional.

Hey - I can't be a GOD at EVERYTHING

[cj]

Thought this was an interesting alternative. Adapt a Samurai transfer case to the rear of a Vitara gearbox so you don't need to change the R&P's and crawler gears are cheaper. http://www.k9rdj.co.uk/

[Beastmavster]

Thought this was an interesting alternative. Adapt a Samurai transfer case to the rear of a Vitara gearbox so you don't need to change the R&P's and crawler gears are cheaper. http://www.k9rdj.co.uk/

Yeah but as I've told him I'm not 100% sure about some of his driveshaft angles sue to the Samurai/Sierra output points.

However it's worth a look or a go and I will investigate this option.

I did look at the gearing options on this previously and it's gonna end up significantly shorter than the Vitara unless you swap back to 4.6 diff centres (or you have them already) or if you get big enough rubber in there

Luckily I'm midway through grinding and hacking so the fear of cutting panels for big rubber no longer affects me.

[cj]

I'd be keen to know how you get on exploring this option as the cost of going the Calmini route is pretty expensive and you wouldn't want to damage a R&P. Dual t-cases was also suggested to me but I'm not to sure that I won't have issues going down that path. The angles involved in this sammi t-case swap are obviously an issue but as long as they aren't a problem this could be a way to go as crawler gears for the sammi case are obviously cheaper and resolving the hi-range issue when wanting to run larger rubber is attractive.