Toy conversion for SERIES axles?

[astro_al]

Hi guys, I've been looking around for info on putting Toy 3rds, custom shafts and longfields into SERIES rover axles. Everything I can find seems to relate to Defender axles.

I know fitting the 3rds will be the same process, but does anyone have any tech regarding the Longs and the series swivel balls?

Anyone done it?

Cheers, Al.

[F'n_Rover]

the series balls are only slightly larger than the rangie ones (internal), so the longs will fit. You will need to work out a way to retain the cv's as you cant fit bushes to the series spindles. Early rangie spindles will fit if you open up the flange hole on the series swivel housing or machine down the rangie's spindle lip. Stage 1 spindles wont help as they don't have cv bushes either. Stage 1 hubs are the go as they fit over the rangie spndles and still allow fitting free weeling hubs. (no point wearing out expensive cv's) cv bushes and shafts would need to be custom.

The other head f$%# is the toyota ratio - I dont think 4.7 is an option, this means fitting rear ratios to suit.

If you can get flange spacers between the axle housing and swivel balls engineered and aproved - you should then be able to run stock toy 40 series axles and cv's. The long moly axles for toyotas are very cheap, Last time i checked around 1/3 the cost of jac mac's. Stock junkyard toy axles are also very cheap and probably plenty strong enough for a series truck. This option means running spacers on the rear to match the new increased track of the front though. I like this setup as you can also increase the steering lock, as of the extra clearance from the wheel to springs. Much better than offset wheels.

I looked at doing this a while ago, but think its a whole lot easier, cheaper and stronger to modify a sals for the front. This fitted with decent shafts and unijoints would be teh ultimate. just like the S111 1 ton setup.

cheers

Simon

[ISUZUROVER]

There is not really any difference in doing the swap on a coiller or a series. Only difference is you need shorter axles.

This is a good writeup:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367387

Mercedesrover who posts on pirate has done the swap on his IIA, and posted some pics, but I can't find them at the moment.

edit: here
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... ght=toyota

As for ratios - I would use 4.88, but they are AFAIK hard to find in a high-pinion front. 4.56 would be OK too (if you can find them).

[astro_al]

Thanks guys - to give a little more info, we are only talking about the technicalities of getting the Longs and shafts to work in the series axles here - the truck itself has a V8 (fairly mild), R380 and LT230. The gearing works out fine with 35s and 4.10 Toy diffs (high pinion front, regular rear e-lockers all round, incidentally). That's the plan, at least. I'll chose between the 1.22 or the 1.4 ratio LT230 when I've fiddled with my spreadsheet a bit more, but either way, it'll be ok.

I've heard rumours that the swivels are in fact SMALLER on the inside than the defender ones (despite being larger on the outside...? I have no way to verify this - are you sure that the longs will fit?

When you factor in the cost of lockers and a part time kit for the LT230, costs start evening out (plus I just want to try it ).

Anyone know where the length difference between Series and later axles is? Is it between the flanges of the axle casing, or where?

The only Series conversion I know of (could be MercedesRover) used Toy UJs and not the Longs (which I think are stronger)?

Thanks, Al.

[ISUZUROVER]

regular rear e-lockers all round,

Why e-lockers? surely an ARB is about the same price and more desirable?

I've heard rumours that the swivels are in fact SMALLER on the inside than the defender ones (despite being larger on the outside...? I have no way to verify this - are you sure that the longs will fit?

Yes and no - they are really bigger, but they need a bit of clearancing/machining internally to fit an AEU2522 (one-ten CV). The longfield CVs are actually slightly smaller than a 2522, so they may not need machining.

Anyone know where the length difference between Series and later axles is? Is it between the flanges of the axle casing, or where?

Short answer - everywhere
Long answer - the stub axle is longer on a series (since the hubs come out further), but the distance between the diff and the swivel is shorter, on all except the salisbury, which has the same length short axle in a one-ten and a SIII.

The only Series conversion I know of (could be MercedesRover) used Toy UJs and not the Longs (which I think are stronger)?

The toyota guys in the US seem to be getting better life out of longs than UJ conversions.

[astro_al]

Hi, thanks again.

Regarding the e-locker - people seem to have good luck with them (which surprised me too at the start). I can get a complete 3rd (brand new) including e-locker for the cost of an ARB locker for a Rover diff (unfitted, and no new diff), so I end up with a stronger (brand new) diff, a good ratio and a locker. Of course I could spend (considerably) more on the Toy ARB, but don't see the point until the e-locker fails.

Ok, so on the clearance front, I'm still searching for the data...

Yeah - I'd like to use the longs if I can. Coming at it from another angle, can I bolt the defender swivel balls to the series axle casing? It's a real pain not having any of the bits to see what's possible...

Cheers, Al.

[ISUZUROVER]

Yeah - I'd like to use the longs if I can. Coming at it from another angle, can I bolt the defender swivel balls to the series axle casing? It's a real pain not having any of the bits to see what's possible...

Cheers, Al.

Interesting info on the e-locker - I though they only came in 1 or 2 ratios?

If you need to, it is a very easy job to clearance the swivel balls, and you don't lose any strength. The defender/rangie balls need to be bored so a 30 spline toyota axle can fit through anyway. This isn't needed on a series as they have a fat axle at this point where it runs on the bearing. Rest assured that a longfield definitely DOES fit in a series swivel ball/housing.

You could redrill the axle-flange holes and bolt 110 swivels on, but you would need to get a LHD and RHD swivel and move the track rod to the front, otherwise it will hit the springs. You would have to use a toyota style combined track rod/drag link.

Personally I would keep the series swivel and housing since they are stronger. Either way you need to do about the same machining.

If you can get some early range rover, 110, or Stage 1 stub-axles/spindles that will make life easier though - since these were already made to accept a brass bush for a CV joint they are easier to modify.

[F'n_Rover]

quote -
I've heard rumours that the swivels are in fact SMALLER on the inside than the defender ones (despite being larger on the outside...? I have no way to verify this - are you sure that the longs will fit?


Ive got some early series 2 balls - these have a real thick case and are smaller on the inside than rangie balls. The S3 balls are thinner and are bigger on the inside, but not by much.

isuzurover wrote -
If you can get some early range rover, 110, or Stage 1 stub-axles/spindles that will make life easier though - since these were already made to accept a brass bush for a CV joint they are easier to modify.

The stage 1 spindles i have - dont have any provision for brass bushes. I thought the stage 1 cv's were supported by the bearing in the ball ?
maybe the longs (axles) could be modified to do this as well. This way nothing would need machining, all bolt on.

[THE 109]

AVM do a part time 4wd conversion for the lt230 which also come with fwh's(fit 110 hub pcd only,not range rover),the kit cost me under $300 from ARB.
As for the axles i would get a set of stage 1 swivel hubs complete from where they bolt onto the diff housing to the drive flange.note that the stage 1 doesn't run a bearing to support the halfshaft,it's done by supporting the cv with the brass bush in the stub axle.your new cv' should fit inside without machining,stage 1 cv's are the same as 110 only longer by 5mm.

[ISUZUROVER]

The stage 1 spindles i have - dont have any provision for brass bushes. I thought the stage 1 cv's were supported by the bearing in the ball ?

If you have spindles/stub-axles without brass bushes they are not Stage 1. All stage 1 and coiller spindles had brass bushes.

Thanks for providing the swivel ball info - I don't have one over here. Stage 1 swivels are already clearanced inside for a CV, the earlier ones you need to do yourself, but it is not a difficult job.

As for the axles i would get a set of stage 1 swivel hubs complete from where they bolt onto the diff housing to the drive flange.

your new cv' should fit inside without machining,stage 1 cv's are the same as 110 only longer by 5mm.

Getting a stage 1 front axle will make the conversion slightly easier. You will still have to do the spindle/stub-axle boring, and modifications to fit a toyota brass bush. You may also need to bore the inner end of the swivel, as is necessary when fitting longfields to coillers.

[astro_al]

Thanks for the input guys.

Ben, you're right, I don't think the e-locker is available with all Toy ratios, it just happens to be available in the ratios I'm looking at.

Ok, so it's looking like the best route is to keep my (new) series swivels and clearance them inside if necessary - I'll check when I get the Longs. That's no big deal. I'd like to use as many standard (and widely available) parts as I can, so this is a good start. I'm not sure I'll gain anything by using the 110 swivels. Thanks for the info on the swivels popeye - sounds like I should be ok with my series 3 swivels and possibly a little clearancing.

Regarding the spindles, (more stupid questions I'm afraid) will the 110 spindles bolt straight on? How do they compare to Series units in terms of mounting my bearings/brakes (aftermarket disc conversion) /everything onto the spindles??? I know I need a brass bush, and I'm perfectly happy to use 110 spindles if it makes life easier (does it?!?).

If the Stage 1 spindles don't have a provision for a bushing, do the 110 ones definitely have them? I don't want to start buying loads of bits and find they're not what I need...

Anyone have any info on the bushes (e.g. a diagram!)?

In fact 'THE 109', I know I can get a part time kit (including useless FWHs), but I don't really want one - it's only for if I have to keep the UJs, but I'd rather fit the Longfields somehow...

Are there any advantages in running the Stage 1 stuff over the set-up discussed above using regular Series/110 parts?

I'd thought about modifying the Longs, but I'd like to keep the machining as straightforward as poss (i.e. confined to the spindle/swivel/bush if possible) - the idea of needing to custom machine my aftermarket spare parts doesn't fill me with joy. If I can break a Longfield and just order a replacement and throw it in, that would be ideal.

Thanks for everyone's help - getting there I think.

Al.

[F'n_Rover]

The rangie / 110? spindles will fit in terms of the bolt patern but the lips are bigger than the series stuff. You can either machine the spindle lip down or take it out of the series housing. I dont know if this lip has any structual function, if so machine the housing. Stage one's (if what i have are stage 1 They're not normal series) will bolt up - no machining. Stage 1 spindles will fit rangie hubs - .

also some thoughts -

Are series spindles going to be stronger than rangie's when bored the required 30 thou? They have a heap more metal at their base due to the smaller inner wheel bearing.

If the stage 1 balls dont have the axle support bearing - i would look at using these as the neck id may be smaller thus stronger I have heard the series balls weak spot is the neck due to the thin housing in this region, due to the fitting the axle bearings. I think the post was on here / daddylonglegs?


Also - is it at all possable to suport a cv with the series axle bearing?
would it be easier than getting custom spindle bushes made?

Keep posting up progress reports here. We get fcuk all series tech, its all rangie rubbish.

[ISUZUROVER]

Regarding the spindles, (more stupid questions I'm afraid) will the 110 spindles bolt straight on? How do they compare to Series units in terms of mounting my bearings/brakes (aftermarket disc conversion) /everything onto the spindles??? I know I need a brass bush, and I'm perfectly happy to use 110 spindles if it makes life easier (does it?!?).

If the Stage 1 spindles don't have a provision for a bushing...

Stage 1s and all coillers have 2 bearings the same size that are slightly larger than the outer bearing on a series (smaller than the inner bearing on a series).

So if you use stage 1 or coiller stub axles you also need to use stage 1 or 110 rear (drum braked) hubs (forgot to mention that).

ALL AXLES WITH CV JOINTS HAVE A BRONZE BUSH IN THE SPINDLE FOR THE CV TO RUN AGAINST. So stage 1, 110, RR, etc. I have owned three stage 1 axles and they all had brass bushes in the spindle.

THIS is a stage1 spindle/stub-axle (coiller stubs are almost the same)


To fit the longfield, you need to remove the original bronze bush, machine a small steel sleeve, then insert a toyota (hilux) bronze bush (should be less than e20 per bush from a toyota parts supplier). There are dimensions on here for the stub axle machining.

If you use stage 1 or early110 rear hubs your brake system should fit on without problems.

Popeye has a good point about the stage 1 swivels being stronger than the series ones, because of the lack of the bearing, but the series swivels are still very strong. I think that series spindles would be weaker than stage 1 or coiler spindles when bored, because the outer bearing is smaller in diameter on a series spindle. The material quality of the later spindles is likely better as well.

The rangie / 110? spindles will fit in terms of the bolt patern but the lips are bigger than the series stuff. You can either machine the spindle lip down or take it out of the series housing.

Popeye - what do you mean by this - if memory serves correctly, the front spindles don't have lips, only the rear???

Have a look at the rangie spindles here - no lips on the front spindles:
http://www.roverparts.com/ProductList.c ... &CurPage=9

EDIT:
Here is the stub axle mod:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... p?id=11227

Give you all a tip. dont buy the Bronze bush from toyota. From memory they were $80 something each. I use aftermarket ones that are available from most Auto Parts Stores. And usually only pay around $20 each for them.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=46323

And here is the late model coiller spindle (bush is on the outside). If you use these you need a different solution for the bush:

[TLCOR]

OK, so you're saying I can bolt Toyota thirdmember, axles, and stub-axles into my '84 Stage One axles? All correct dimensions? What exactly does it take? How about brakes?

30-spline chromoly shafts and an ARB would be pimp.

[F'n_Rover]

Popeye - what do you mean by this - if memory serves correctly, the front spindles don't have lips, only the rear???

see pic for what i call a lip

these are the stage 1 spindles i have - no bush just an oil seal.

[ISUZUROVER]

OK, so you're saying I can bolt Toyota thirdmember, axles, and stub-axles into my '84 Stage One axles? All correct dimensions? What exactly does it take? How about brakes?

30-spline chromoly shafts and an ARB would be pimp.

NO. They are all the wrong dimensions and need lots of mods and custom parts. But it is possible.

Read this thread for a how-to:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367387

see pic for what i call a lip

these are the stage 1 spindles i have - no bush just an oil seal.

As usual Bill has the answers - see the quote below.

I have never seen a spindle like you have - what was the axle number it came off, and did it have CVs? Looks more like it could be a very late Series 3. When you compare the one I posted with the one you posted, you can see that the CV is going to be sitting in a very different position (much further outboard with your spindle).

EDIT - here is some useful info posted by Bill on pirate, about fitting coiller spindles to a Series.

The spindle bolt pattern is identical, the spigot diameter where the spindle locates in the outer swivel housing is slightly larger on the RangeRover. Just turn it down to fit. Also the thrust shoulder for the bronze CV bushing is slightly deeper on the RangeRover compared to Stage 1 spindles, so that needs to be skimmed a little also. The RangeRover spindle does not have a spigot to centre the brake backing plate if you are using drum brakes but I never found that to be a problem.
I you use Birfields in series swivel balls, the large roller bearing that used to support the inner axle is redundent, so you can fill this space up with a press in/weld in insert to beef up the throat of the swivel ball. I have seen a number of series 2a and 2b forward control swivel balls split the flange off at the throat. I made my inserts with 3/8'' thick flanges and spigots that enter the ball to a depth of 1 3/4" and welded them in to really strengthen this area to cope with the stress that portal boxes and 36 inch tyres place on them.
Bill.

But I must correct myself on one point. I have fitted stage1 spindles to Rangerover swivels before as well as RangeRover spindles to series swivels and got my memory wires crossed.
To fit series swivel housings the thrust shoulder for the cv bronze bushing is too shallow by 5 mm on the Rangerover spindle so the bush must be spaced out that much. ( I made thicker bushings.)
The Stage 1 swivel balls space the top and bottom swivel pin bearings slightly further apart and use a shorter Railco pin and bush to provide clearance for the Birfield. but I don't use Railko's anyway and never had clearance issues.
Bill.

[astro_al]

Hi. Thank you so much for the great tech! This is exactly what I needed. Ben if you are ever in Paris, I'll buy you a beer!

There seem to be a few options here, so I'm going to start picking my 'selection', and finalising the details. I'd like to keep my suspension and brakes, so although I have considered transplanting Rangey axle casings and doing this the normal way, I think I'll plough on with the Series casings. I can't be bothered with a coil conversion (which would inevitably draw me into 4-linking the thing), or fiddling with the Rangey casing to fit the parabolics to it at the moment.

So. Looking back through the thread, I'll try to cover any outstanding points:

I want to stick to the strongest and most commonly available parts to avoid future problems. Since mileage isn't a huge issue, I'm not worried about fitting free-wheeling hubs. I will be doing both front and rear conversions to Toy lockable diffs and shafts, so ratio matching with the Rover diffs isn't an issue. I've given up on UJs - I'm going for the Longfields. Stage 1 stuff always seems a bit scarce, so I'm gonna steer clear of it (I think). I'd like to use un-modified Longfields if I can.

Questions remaining are:
*1. Do I fit flange spacers between axle casing and swivel balls to extend to the standard axle length, or do I get shafts of a custom length and fit them to regular series width axles? Would I need just one spacer per end, or another one between swivel housing and spindle to correct the length outboard of the CV? I'd obviously do the same at the rear to match track widths.

*2. I don't need FWH. How should I make the drive flanges? Is there somewhere I can order them for Toy 30 spline and Rover bolt pattern? I cuold fab some up on a lathe, but project time is a fairly scarce resource (I live in France, project lives in UK...). So, drive flanges?

*3. It seems that Series (3) swivel balls are beefier than Def equivalents, with the possible exception of the narrow neck between ball and flange. I can clearance inside the ball if necessary. I can also bore out the inner end if necessary. I can weld in an insert in place of the old shaft-support bearing, to beef up the weak spot. What dimension is required through the swivel ball neck to clear the Toy shaft?

*4. It sounds like I should go with the early Defender (or Rangey? - same?) spindles which are built ready for a bush. Anyone got a part number? I guess this will be the same as the one in the diagram. I can machine down where necessary, I doubt anyone has the dims for this, so I'll do some measuring when I can figure out exactly what parts to order.

*5. Since I need an extra steel bush spacer in this application, doesn't it make sense to not bother buying the bronze bushes and just make some myself which incorporate this extra spacer? Otherwise I need to make the spacers AND buy the bushes... Does anyone have the dimensions for what is required?

*6. I second 'popeyes' question: "Also - is it at all possable to suport a cv with the series axle bearing? would it be easier than getting custom spindle bushes made?" ?

*7. Ah - hold on, this comment: "So if you use stage 1 or coiller stub axles you also need to use stage 1 or 110 rear (drum braked) hubs (forgot to mention that). " means that I have to use Series spindles in order to keep my brakes, right?

*** Oh, no, hang on, then I read: "If you use stage 1 or early110 rear hubs your brake system should fit on without problems. " - so I'm ok then?

*8. Anyone know what "1541M" is like for halfshafts?

*9. Is that Bill at GBR?

Think that's it for now! Phew, there's a lot of info to get through here!

Cheers everyone, keep it coming, Al.

[F'n_Rover]

*8. Anyone know what "1541M" is like for halfshafts?

Why bother? if you are getting cstom shafts made, the extra cost for molly steel will be stuff all extra. Its about $5.00 per kilo. Alloy steel will be more expensive to heat treat, but again not by much.

[ISUZUROVER]

Hi. Thank you so much for the great tech! This is exactly what I needed. Ben if you are ever in Paris, I'll buy you a beer!

That is a dangerous offer - I am not too far away - Karlsruhe, Germany. Paris is definitely one of my favourite cities in Europe. I just turned down a work trip to Paris though - since I am a bit too busy.

I'd like to use un-modified Longfields if I can.

I machined the stub of the long slightly so that I will only need to machine out the rover stub axle to be a slight press-fit with the spline diameter of the longfield. New diamater is 31.9mm, outer spline diameter is 32.5mm. The idea behind it is that you can then leave the spindles slightly thicker, thereby keeping them as strong as possible. http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=42732

Questions remaining are:
*1. Do I fit flange spacers between axle casing and swivel balls to extend to the standard axle length, or do I get shafts of a custom length and fit them to regular series width axles? Would I need just one spacer per end, or another one between swivel housing and spindle to correct the length outboard of the CV? I'd obviously do the same at the rear to match track widths.

The hilux axle is about the same width as a series axle, but I don't think the diff offset is the same. You would probably have to shorten one of your axle tubes and lengthen the other to get everything to fit - then you would have to move the spring mounts...
If it was me I would buy custom inner axles (if I was happy with the stock series track). You do not need a spacer between the swivels and the spindles. Jacmac in OZ has off-the-shelf axles for the toy conversion in a coiler - so they can probably supply you with axles for your conversion without a problem.

*2. I don't need FWH. How should I make the drive flanges? Is there somewhere I can order them for Toy 30 spline and Rover bolt pattern? I cuold fab some up on a lathe, but project time is a fairly scarce resource (I live in France, project lives in UK...). So, drive flanges?

Again, jacmac have coiller flanges off-the shelf, so if you are using coiller hubs you can buy these. Otherwise, the cheap and quick way is to get some old drive flanges and some toyota diff side gears - fit a into b, pin and weld.

*3. It seems that Series (3) swivel balls are beefier than Def equivalents, with the possible exception of the narrow neck between ball and flange. I can clearance inside the ball if necessary. I can also bore out the inner end if necessary. I can weld in an insert in place of the old shaft-support bearing, to beef up the weak spot. What dimension is required through the swivel ball neck to clear the Toy shaft?

Toy shaft is 1.31" - you need about 0.010" over that.

*4. It sounds like I should go with the early Defender (or Rangey? - same?) spindles which are built ready for a bush. Anyone got a part number? I guess this will be the same as the one in the diagram. I can machine down where necessary, I doubt anyone has the dims for this, so I'll do some measuring when I can figure out exactly what parts to order.

*5. Since I need an extra steel bush spacer in this application, doesn't it make sense to not bother buying the bronze bushes and just make some myself which incorporate this extra spacer? Otherwise I need to make the spacers AND buy the bushes... Does anyone have the dimensions for what is required?

4 - no exact dimensions apart from the info from Jacmac and Bill already there.
5 - The idea behind using the toyota bush, is that it is a stock part should you ever need to replace it. Keith (rovertracks) machines his own bronze bushes and doesn't use a spacer.

*6. I second 'popeyes' question: "Also - is it at all possable to suport a cv with the series axle bearing? would it be easier than getting custom spindle bushes made?" ?

I don't think that would work, you would either need a smaller bearing, or a collar on the axle. You would have to use non-necked down axles, which are more prone to fatigue (and may cost more?). I think the bush is the simplest, easiest, most reliable idea.

*7. Ah - hold on, this comment: "So if you use stage 1 or coiller stub axles you also need to use stage 1 or 110 rear (drum braked) hubs (forgot to mention that). " means that I have to use Series spindles in order to keep my brakes, right?

*** Oh, no, hang on, then I read: "If you use stage 1 or early110 rear hubs your brake system should fit on without problems. " - so I'm ok then?

Depends on exactly how your brake system bolts on and what parts it uses - more details???

*8. Anyone know what "1541M" is like for halfshafts?

*9. Is that Bill at GBR?

Think that's it for now! Phew, there's a lot of info to get through here!

Cheers everyone, keep it coming, Al.

I think you mean 1541H? This is not a bad steel, but personally If I was forking out for aftermarket axles would get 4340, EN25, or HYTUFF.

The Bill I mantioned is in OZ. He posts on pirate under the name "portalrover".

I would be interested in pics of your CVs if you get the 2nd gen ones. Also, keep us updated on progress. I will be doing something similar with my longfields in 6 months or so.

Edit - looks like the PN for the toyota spindle bush is:
90999-70067 SPINDLE BUSH front (L/CRSR,HILUX) 9/75-