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Recovery points on sierras
Recovery points on sierras
Just a quick question, are the loops at the front and rear of the sierras recovery points or tie down points? i looked im the manual but it says nothing about recovery points on sierras.
Be VERY VERY careful about how you attach hooks. The sierra chassis is only 2.5mm thick and actually requires crush tubes to be welded in to properly bolt through the chassis. If you don't and bolt though one thickness only, you risk fatigue of the chassis in this location and have a big heavy case projectile with a bit of possibly important chassis attached.
On the rear of a wide track there are two 12mm holes behind the rear shackle mount that can be used to bolt take a flat plate of whatever thickness you want to the back of the car. This plate can have a hole drilled in it to take a shackle, or if you have a tow bar, make a short tongue up with a hole big enough for a shackle.
On the front, I use the stock tie down loop. I've seen one break over the years but this was on a very very hard worked car. I've seen more bars fall off the front of cars than stock recovery points fail. (and many more straps fail than stock tie down loops fail)
Just my 2C.
and yes, I know the front point is only a tie down, but a badly mounted hook is far more dangerous than a failed stock point.
Steve.
On the rear of a wide track there are two 12mm holes behind the rear shackle mount that can be used to bolt take a flat plate of whatever thickness you want to the back of the car. This plate can have a hole drilled in it to take a shackle, or if you have a tow bar, make a short tongue up with a hole big enough for a shackle.
On the front, I use the stock tie down loop. I've seen one break over the years but this was on a very very hard worked car. I've seen more bars fall off the front of cars than stock recovery points fail. (and many more straps fail than stock tie down loops fail)
Just my 2C.
and yes, I know the front point is only a tie down, but a badly mounted hook is far more dangerous than a failed stock point.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
ARB bars use 4 10mm bolts at the chassis end and 4 more bolts on the bumper mount outriggers, however, these don't clear a 30-31" tyre so they get cut off making the mounts too weak to winch off.
Steve.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
i usually agree with most things you say steve but this is just plain stupid.Gwagensteve wrote:On the front, I use the stock tie down loop. I've seen one break over the years but this was on a very very hard worked car. I've seen more bars fall off the front of cars than stock recovery points fail. (and many more straps fail than stock tie down loops fail)
Just my 2C.
and yes, I know the front point is only a tie down, but a badly mounted hook is far more dangerous than a failed stock point.
Steve.
Yes you may have only seen one fail, but that one time might be the difference between someone getting hit in the head with a shackle and them not.
With a hook, there is only a snatch attatched, whereas with the loop you have to have a shackle, and if the loop breaks....
its not hard for someone to get a big square bit of plate on either side of their bolt holes to stop chassis fatigue.
personally i wouldnt want to be the reason why someone used that loop and died from a shackle. Just remember alot of people on here will try to snatch anything, no matter how stuck it is.
Also, ive never seen a towball break becuase of snatching, but i wont be suggesting it to anyone, and tell others to use something different if they even think about using it.
85 LWB w. FRP Canopy
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:35 pm
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:35 pm
Location: Pimpin' zooks to disatisfied Jeep owners ;)
Contact:
Hi Spike, I see your point, but I think you may have missed Steve's amongst it all perhaps?
Steve was trying to say, I think, that he would use a front loop over/instead of a poorly mounted chassis hook- i.e. only bolted to one wall of it without bracing/crush tubes. And not that a properly mounted hook would be a bad idea in place of the tie down loop. A poorly mounted hook would be just as much of a missile hazard as a shackle in the event of a recovery point failure.
Having said that, I've had the sierra pulled out plenty of times by the tie down loop, even with my diffs buried in clay. Not saying it wouldn't break under massive load- I just think it's ok for a zook recovery but not for yanking out pootrols buried up to their sills in mud.
The second point was that Steve was suggesting making either a heavy gauge box section or short flat plate tongue if you have a tow bar and drill a hole through the protruding steel, big enough to take a shackle and far enough back to prevent fatigue or the shackle shearing it. That's a fairly commonplace recovery point isn't it? I don't think he was suggesting something as irresponsible as to recover off a towball.
I believe recovery hooks are a good idea when they're done properly and that there isn't a massive risk using the tie down loop as a primary or secondary recovery point either. I've seen two 'strong recovery' eyelets on suzuki winch bars get sheared through by shackles in a snatch strap recovery, but not one factory loop- yet...
Mike
Steve was trying to say, I think, that he would use a front loop over/instead of a poorly mounted chassis hook- i.e. only bolted to one wall of it without bracing/crush tubes. And not that a properly mounted hook would be a bad idea in place of the tie down loop. A poorly mounted hook would be just as much of a missile hazard as a shackle in the event of a recovery point failure.
Having said that, I've had the sierra pulled out plenty of times by the tie down loop, even with my diffs buried in clay. Not saying it wouldn't break under massive load- I just think it's ok for a zook recovery but not for yanking out pootrols buried up to their sills in mud.
The second point was that Steve was suggesting making either a heavy gauge box section or short flat plate tongue if you have a tow bar and drill a hole through the protruding steel, big enough to take a shackle and far enough back to prevent fatigue or the shackle shearing it. That's a fairly commonplace recovery point isn't it? I don't think he was suggesting something as irresponsible as to recover off a towball.
I believe recovery hooks are a good idea when they're done properly and that there isn't a massive risk using the tie down loop as a primary or secondary recovery point either. I've seen two 'strong recovery' eyelets on suzuki winch bars get sheared through by shackles in a snatch strap recovery, but not one factory loop- yet...
Mike
People to do, Things to see ;)
Upgrade to L.E.D. on your rig! http://www.ledautolamps.com/
Upgrade to L.E.D. on your rig! http://www.ledautolamps.com/
pics anyone... i still have yet to find any pics of a hook on a Sierra (mounted poorly or properly).
Pics would help the layman know what you are talking about.
Pics would help the layman know what you are talking about.
'93 sierra WT, 2" BL, 3" TG springs, 2" zorst, CD, 235's
To do: xtractrs, bigger tyres, gears, etc
See members for pics/info
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/sutra1368130.php#1368130
To do: xtractrs, bigger tyres, gears, etc
See members for pics/info
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/sutra1368130.php#1368130
I COPYED THIS FORMA NOTHER FOURM
Anything that is ‘rated’ with a SWL or WLL has a breaking strain at least 4x the SWL or WLL. This is an accepted industry figure.
For ‘rated’ items used for lifting people, the breaking strain can be as much as 8x the SWL or WLL.
A standard (light duty) nato hook as fitted to Land Rovers is rated at just over 4 tons SWL which means it has a MINIMUM breaking strain of 16 tons. The reality of something specified for military use is that it has a much higher breaking strain, and over 20 tons is highly likely.
Even a standard UK type 2 bolt mount 50mm tow ball has a SWL of 3,500kg (3.5 tons), therefore has a breaking strain of 14 tons or more. This is precisely why it is accepted as a suitable recovery point by many off road clubs and the MSA. (Ideally it should be mounted in such a way that it is difficult for the rope to slip over the ball).
Anything that is ‘rated’ with a SWL or WLL has a breaking strain at least 4x the SWL or WLL. This is an accepted industry figure.
For ‘rated’ items used for lifting people, the breaking strain can be as much as 8x the SWL or WLL.
A standard (light duty) nato hook as fitted to Land Rovers is rated at just over 4 tons SWL which means it has a MINIMUM breaking strain of 16 tons. The reality of something specified for military use is that it has a much higher breaking strain, and over 20 tons is highly likely.
Even a standard UK type 2 bolt mount 50mm tow ball has a SWL of 3,500kg (3.5 tons), therefore has a breaking strain of 14 tons or more. This is precisely why it is accepted as a suitable recovery point by many off road clubs and the MSA. (Ideally it should be mounted in such a way that it is difficult for the rope to slip over the ball).
91 SWB Sierra. 16v 1.6efi, extractors, 6.1gears, SPOA, 32 BF muddys and 2inch bodylift
Bingo Raqmup - I'll still say a stock point is better than a badly mounted hook.
*please don't think I'm being dismissive or blase about the dangers of snatch recoveries I've seen lots of stuff fail*
A Stock front recovery point is a known quantity, and I can say from experience they are very durable.
A hook, mounted poorly, can, IMHO be far more dangerous, and I'll elaborate on the reasons:
The stock point, when it fails, tends to go fairly slowly, absorbing a lot of the force of the failure. Yes, they are connected to the strap by a shackle, but when they go, they're only going to go in one direction - towards the other car, and only for as far as the length of the strap. The strap itself helps to slow the projectile, unlike a winch cable.
(also, the stock point can fail noisily- with a loud creak- without actually coming off the front of the car)
However, a hook is likely to separate from the strap and then you have a very dangerous situation - a hook that's much heavier and more aerodynamic than a strap or a (common) shackle with a bit if fairly light metal attached to it, moving in any direction, without the limit to direction or distance dictated by the strap. The unpredictability of the hook is the problem.
Now to mounting.
There's a few problems with a sierra.
A) the chassis is only 2.5mm thick
B) getting a hook onto the chassis in a nice clear position pretty much means putting it on the top of the chassis. This means the doubling plate/washers can only be about 40mm in diameter and there's VERY limited room to get nuts etc up the rail past the front crossmember. It also means the front bumper or most bullbars won't fit.
C) attaching the hook, about 25mm wide, to a rail about 50mm wide, even with backing plates, will create serious shear loads in the corners of the rail, far from ideal. (especially on 2.5" rail)
D) In my opinion, fitting a hook to the front of a sierra requires an amount of welding, either via crush sleeve fitment, or reinforcement of the chassis, or something,in order to provide enough strength to safely (and IMHO properly) mount a hook on the front of a sierra. Most people aren't capable of this and mounting a hook wherever they can is unlikely to be better than what suzuki provided.
That's why I'll choose to use a stock front recovery point over a hook attached somewhere else on the front of the car.
PS I don't really like generic cheap hooks anyway and for a sierra I'd choose to use an 80 series tie down loop, which work very well. I don't like castings of unknown quality.
On another note - We are generally snatching suzuki's carefully with other suzukis. We never just back right up and give it the berries. A very insensitive driver with no clue, in a very heavy car, could well tear a sierra apart if it was stuck badly enough. You can't engineer for every possibility.
My 2C. I always seem to get in trouble when I post recovery stuff.
Steve.
*please don't think I'm being dismissive or blase about the dangers of snatch recoveries I've seen lots of stuff fail*
A Stock front recovery point is a known quantity, and I can say from experience they are very durable.
A hook, mounted poorly, can, IMHO be far more dangerous, and I'll elaborate on the reasons:
The stock point, when it fails, tends to go fairly slowly, absorbing a lot of the force of the failure. Yes, they are connected to the strap by a shackle, but when they go, they're only going to go in one direction - towards the other car, and only for as far as the length of the strap. The strap itself helps to slow the projectile, unlike a winch cable.
(also, the stock point can fail noisily- with a loud creak- without actually coming off the front of the car)
However, a hook is likely to separate from the strap and then you have a very dangerous situation - a hook that's much heavier and more aerodynamic than a strap or a (common) shackle with a bit if fairly light metal attached to it, moving in any direction, without the limit to direction or distance dictated by the strap. The unpredictability of the hook is the problem.
Now to mounting.
There's a few problems with a sierra.
A) the chassis is only 2.5mm thick
B) getting a hook onto the chassis in a nice clear position pretty much means putting it on the top of the chassis. This means the doubling plate/washers can only be about 40mm in diameter and there's VERY limited room to get nuts etc up the rail past the front crossmember. It also means the front bumper or most bullbars won't fit.
C) attaching the hook, about 25mm wide, to a rail about 50mm wide, even with backing plates, will create serious shear loads in the corners of the rail, far from ideal. (especially on 2.5" rail)
D) In my opinion, fitting a hook to the front of a sierra requires an amount of welding, either via crush sleeve fitment, or reinforcement of the chassis, or something,in order to provide enough strength to safely (and IMHO properly) mount a hook on the front of a sierra. Most people aren't capable of this and mounting a hook wherever they can is unlikely to be better than what suzuki provided.
That's why I'll choose to use a stock front recovery point over a hook attached somewhere else on the front of the car.
PS I don't really like generic cheap hooks anyway and for a sierra I'd choose to use an 80 series tie down loop, which work very well. I don't like castings of unknown quality.
On another note - We are generally snatching suzuki's carefully with other suzukis. We never just back right up and give it the berries. A very insensitive driver with no clue, in a very heavy car, could well tear a sierra apart if it was stuck badly enough. You can't engineer for every possibility.
My 2C. I always seem to get in trouble when I post recovery stuff.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Here's a pic of my front hook that doesn't bolt to the chassis at all!
It bolts to my winch bar which is held to the chassis by 4 X M10 bolts with crush tubes and two extra braces to counter the rotational forces imposed by the winch.
I've given this hook a hiding by trying to snatch hiluxes and 4 runners out of holes that I ended up winching them out of.
Full throttle reverse with 3-4 metre run up.!!
Note in the pic the lower bolt has a crush tube outside the chassis, this is because I've swapped it over from my old WT chassis to this one (NT) and haven't got a shorter bolt yet.
It bolts to my winch bar which is held to the chassis by 4 X M10 bolts with crush tubes and two extra braces to counter the rotational forces imposed by the winch.
I've given this hook a hiding by trying to snatch hiluxes and 4 runners out of holes that I ended up winching them out of.
Full throttle reverse with 3-4 metre run up.!!
Note in the pic the lower bolt has a crush tube outside the chassis, this is because I've swapped it over from my old WT chassis to this one (NT) and haven't got a shorter bolt yet.
here is mine. one on each side, mounted where each end of the tow bar mounts.
I also always use a equliser strap between them.
REAR
FRONT, (the red hooks on the Tube Bar)
I also always use a equliser strap between them.
REAR
FRONT, (the red hooks on the Tube Bar)
Hookers are like bowling balls, You pick them up, put your fingers in them, then throw them in the gutter and they come back for more.
i had to cut out the cross member and replace it from another wreck and when i did i strengthened it with a bit of gal pipe. Which i drilled on the ends and bolted rated eyelets to it.
My new bar is bolted to the chasis with crush tubes and also bolted to the strenghtened front crossmember with stainless U bolts.
My new bar is bolted to the chasis with crush tubes and also bolted to the strenghtened front crossmember with stainless U bolts.
1999 SQ625 Manual Grand Vitara. Lifted, Twin Locked, 31' Extremes, dual Batteries, Winch.
Lots of custom gear as I cant afford the proper stuff.
Lots of custom gear as I cant afford the proper stuff.
Here I go getting in trouble again, what's the rating of those eyelets B4T?
Generally, I don't support the use of eyelets for recovery as they aren't generally rated highly enough. I wouldn't use an eyelet rated less than the shackle, and here's the rating for lifting eyes:
http://www.bullivants.com/front/hardwar ... id_dir=215
I can't see an eye there I'd allow for recovery (that's a usable suie). Have a look at the corrections for angle and single eye use, and even a M30 eye doesn't look like it will match a 3.25t WLL shackle.
As an aside, I'm concerned that the contact face for the collar of the eyelet and the nut aren't flat or parallel.
Adding a sling to 1/2 the load on each ring will help, but further reduces the WLL of the eyes.
Sorry, B4T, I do respect the input you have to the forum and don't want it to look like I'm having a go at your work, but I really don't think your solution is superior to the stock point, regardless of the thickness of the material you've bolted the eye to.
Steve.
Generally, I don't support the use of eyelets for recovery as they aren't generally rated highly enough. I wouldn't use an eyelet rated less than the shackle, and here's the rating for lifting eyes:
http://www.bullivants.com/front/hardwar ... id_dir=215
I can't see an eye there I'd allow for recovery (that's a usable suie). Have a look at the corrections for angle and single eye use, and even a M30 eye doesn't look like it will match a 3.25t WLL shackle.
As an aside, I'm concerned that the contact face for the collar of the eyelet and the nut aren't flat or parallel.
Adding a sling to 1/2 the load on each ring will help, but further reduces the WLL of the eyes.
Sorry, B4T, I do respect the input you have to the forum and don't want it to look like I'm having a go at your work, but I really don't think your solution is superior to the stock point, regardless of the thickness of the material you've bolted the eye to.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
X 2.Gwagensteve wrote:Here I go getting in trouble again, what's the rating of those eyelets B4T?
Generally, I don't support the use of eyelets for recovery as they aren't generally rated highly enough. I wouldn't use an eyelet rated less than the shackle, and here's the rating for lifting eyes:
http://www.bullivants.com/front/hardwar ... id_dir=215
I can't see an eye there I'd allow for recovery (that's a usable suie). Have a look at the corrections for angle and single eye use, and even a M30 eye doesn't look like it will match a 3.25t WLL shackle.
As an aside, I'm concerned that the contact face for the collar of the eyelet and the nut aren't flat or parallel.
Adding a sling to 1/2 the load on each ring will help, but further reduces the WLL of the eyes.
Sorry, B4T, I do respect the input you have to the forum and don't want it to look like I'm having a go at your work, but I really don't think your solution is superior to the stock point, regardless of the thickness of the material you've bolted the eye to.
Steve.
Just one bolt isn't enough for ANY recovery point IMHO (even if halved with a strap).
Jas.
Oh, as an aisde, I was working on a sierra on the weekend that in a previous life was driven hard in lots of mud with 35" tyres and a SPOA on it, but no front locker.
As a result, it has had some VERY hard recoveries over the years. The front crossmember is bent forwards and the tie down has just started to crack away from the back of the crossmember (only in the weld). I'd still recover off it and I didn't judge, for the car's current use, it required repair.
I can't stress how hard this car will have been recovered over the years.
Steve.
As a result, it has had some VERY hard recoveries over the years. The front crossmember is bent forwards and the tie down has just started to crack away from the back of the crossmember (only in the weld). I'd still recover off it and I didn't judge, for the car's current use, it required repair.
I can't stress how hard this car will have been recovered over the years.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Was very tempted to use eyebolts for a rear recovery point as I had a few freebies when I checked the ratings on them...
Surprisingly ( worryingly ) low and only on axis to the thread. Would have required a huge eyebolt to get an appropriate rating and safety margin.
Surprisingly ( worryingly ) low and only on axis to the thread. Would have required a huge eyebolt to get an appropriate rating and safety margin.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
the eyelets were installed as a means to be recovered using a equalising sling only until i sorted out a better option to the factory hook. the factory hook failure happened being snatched out of a bog hole by a hilux. took 3 attempts to get me out and the last attempt did the dammage.
I havent yet gotten around to bolting the rated hook style points to the new winch bar as i havent felt the need yet. if i get stuck i just drag out the winch.
the factory hoops are ONLY tie down points for transport and they break.
You would never snatch off a tow ball so why would this be any different. neither are rated for recovery.
I havent yet gotten around to bolting the rated hook style points to the new winch bar as i havent felt the need yet. if i get stuck i just drag out the winch.
the factory hoops are ONLY tie down points for transport and they break.
You would never snatch off a tow ball so why would this be any different. neither are rated for recovery.
1999 SQ625 Manual Grand Vitara. Lifted, Twin Locked, 31' Extremes, dual Batteries, Winch.
Lots of custom gear as I cant afford the proper stuff.
Lots of custom gear as I cant afford the proper stuff.
Sorry for gravedigging an old thread, but have been wondering what the best options are for my Zook re recovery points.
Given that the real problem with mounting recovery points on Zooks is the thin chassis walls and limited room, I'm thinking maybe the best way is to get a short flat strap made up that can be slipped around the front cross member and then shackled to a normal snatch strap (my bullbar doesn't impede access to the cross member).
I'd use a heavy duty bungee cord lanyard to attach the shackle to the bullbar too to prevent the shackle flying far if the short strap broke.
I think the cross member should be strong enough for 99% of Zook recoveries? I only try snatching larger cars if they're only mildly bogged, so I treat it pretty gently in that respect.
Given that the real problem with mounting recovery points on Zooks is the thin chassis walls and limited room, I'm thinking maybe the best way is to get a short flat strap made up that can be slipped around the front cross member and then shackled to a normal snatch strap (my bullbar doesn't impede access to the cross member).
I'd use a heavy duty bungee cord lanyard to attach the shackle to the bullbar too to prevent the shackle flying far if the short strap broke.
I think the cross member should be strong enough for 99% of Zook recoveries? I only try snatching larger cars if they're only mildly bogged, so I treat it pretty gently in that respect.
Nah the back isn't an issue as I have a towbar fitted (ie can shackle to the tongue with the ball removed). There's enough welds and steel in my towbar that I'm pretty comfortable there will never be a brittle failure.
PS You've scrubbed out your numberplate in Photo 2 but it's still there in Photo 3
PS You've scrubbed out your numberplate in Photo 2 but it's still there in Photo 3
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