4BD1 To R380

Post by **steel** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:41 pm

Gday all,
Im new to this forum, though hope to have many good chats . Im hoping to make good use of the extensive knowledge ive viewed so far, so first up: ive got a 76 rangie, P76, R380, LT230, 1.4:1, ARB rear with fine spline axles, 2 inch suspension, 40mm body lift, stock length shocks, 265/75/16 tyres on stock disco steelies. Now a question : can I fit an Isuzu 4BD1 to my R380

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:56 pm

Yes but you need to make your own bellhousing. Strangerover(SAM)'s business partner had a 4BD1 and R380 in his RR with a homemade conversion. Gearbox is holding up well so far.

Post by **steel** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:37 pm

Thanks Ben, is that easy ? expensive? even possible here in Darwin?{small town } I can get a low km { 50 k } engine cheap { $1,500 } so what about turbo charging? are they a good motor? worth doing?

Post by **landy_man** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:45 pm

you would be better off getting one that is already turboed....
from what i have read, the non turbo version does not like having turbo's bolted on....the internals of the 4BD1T and the 4BD1 are different....
but as i said this is not 1st hand experience

Post by **steel** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:32 pm

anyone know power & torque figures of 4BD1 & what revs? is this motor a good thing? better option normally aspirated than a TDI 300? are these motors as used in Landrovers { civilian & military } the same as used in Isuzu trucks? {the motor im looking at is out of a Isuzu truck}

Thanks, Jason

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:44 pm

Not sure of torque but power is usually 85bhp in trucks and military LR's(NA) and 99BHP in LR county (i.e. mine - see sig). They have plenty of torque, even NA. The turbo's (5psi) put out about 120-130bhp.

The 4BD1T has alfin pistons and an oil spray bar to spray il on the bottom of the pistons for cooling. Turboing a NA 4BD1 isn't hard because in a Land Rover they don't work nearly as hard as in a truck. The one I mentioned before has been fitted with an aftermarket turbo and has been going for years with no problems. I will turboing mine when I get back to Australia.

$1500 is pretty cheap if in good condition, if you don't want it PM me with the details and I will buy it (or if you can get 2). The only problem with the truck motor is the sump, flywheel and oil filter are different to the landrover version. And the starter and alternator will probably be 24V.

So - as well as getting a bellhousing made you need to:

Buy an upwards facing oil filter (downward facing interferes with the propshaft). Possibly modiy the sump (not sure) and the Land Rover sump holds an extra litre of oil (extends out on LHS of engine). Fit a 12V alternator and buy a 12V starter $$$ or fit a voltage converter for starting with the 24V starter.

If you can get hold of someone who is good at welding/machining up there they should be able to make you a bellhousing adaptor and do any flywheel machining required.

Post by **Bush65** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:05 pm

I've got a 4bd1t out of an isuzu truck. Adding to what Ben said, I found the 24v starter on mine fouled the chassis with motor in normal rover position - but I'm not using rover transmission (6 speed isuzu and atlas) so I moved the motor closer to centre so it clears.

Also crank is different in the turbo motor, same size but journals are tufftrided. And I think (someone may correct this) the oil cooler has an extra section - because of the oil spray cooling of the pistons.

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:09 pm

How much do the 6spd boxes sell for John? And how do they compare in size to a rover box???

Post by **steel** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:18 pm

Thanks fellas , good info
John, is your 6 speed the? standard box behind 4BD1T in trucks? what is that box called? how would it sit with LT230? is it very long
Anyone done a 6BD1 conversion?

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:22 pm

Good luck trying to fit a 6BD1 in a rangie. You should see the (lack of) room under the bonnet with a 4BD1T in there. Not to mention the diffs and axles you will break with the torque.

Post by **Bush65** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:44 pm

The 6 speed box was out of an Isuzu NQR. I had to use a different Isuzu bellhousing to mate to the 4BD1T, and modify it slightly to fit the gearbox. Also change the hub in the clutch plate for the larger input shaft (and 4BD1T clutch is a lot bigger than rover).

Comparing gears, bearings and shaft sizes, I would judge that it is stronger than an LT95. 1st gear is 5:1, 4th is 1:1, 5th and 6th are overdrive. I had to make an adaptor for a transfer case (not finished yet).
Bell housing and input shaft are shorter than those for rangies, but overall the box, with transfer adaptor is longer.

Post by **Bush65** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:57 pm

I can't recall figures at the moment, but 4BD1T has more power and torque than NA chev 6.5 diesel (I was going to put a 6.5 diesel in the bushie (hence name bush65) until I saw the light). With intercooler and some other tweaks should have ample of both.

The 6BD1T would be too long for rangie engine bay. I've never bothered to check power and torque figures for a 6BD1T, I think they would be a bit much for rover 10 spline axles

Post by **steel** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:57 pm

how much does a Rover V8 weigh?
" " P76 " " ?
" " 4bd1 " " ?

Post by **Bush65** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:01 pm

steel wrote:how much does a Rover V8 weigh?
" " P76 " " ?
" " 4bd1 " " ?

As I recall rover v8 is 375 lbs dry (someone else may have a better number). P76 would be about the same.
From a manual, 4BD1 is 323 kg (711 lbs)

Post by **steel** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:22 pm

THANKS JOHN, THATS A BIG DISCREPEPENCY. IVE ALWAYS ATTRIBUTED MY RANGIES EXCELLENT SAND DRIVING ABILITY TO THE ALLOY V8 { & GOOD POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO }, IT FLOATS WHERE TOYOS & NISSANS SINK. I SPOSE THERES NO SUCH THING AS A LIGHTWEIGHT DIESEL WITH GOOD POWER? DO YOU THINK I SHOULD BE CONCERNED?

Post by **steel** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:24 pm

what about the 200 & 300 TDI, whats the mass of these motors?
& while were talking TDIs, whats the difference between 200 & 300?
which is the better motor

Thanks Jason

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:37 pm

300 would be about 50kg or so heavier but don't know for sure. They are both pretty good motors, but if anything the 200 is probably a bit better. No reported head warping problems like the 300 and fewer timing belt problems (as long as you keep the oil and water away from it). The 200 actually has a narrower belt than the 300 but a longer service interval - probably due to the better belt alignment.

I have driven a slightly tweaked 300Tdi and it was only about the same as my 4BD1 in acceleration until you got the turbo really spooled up. The 4BD1 has a lot better low down torque.

Post by **steel** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:56 pm

Thanks Ben, U say 50 kg heavier, do you mean 50 kg heavier than alloy V8?
Do I need a different bellhousing for tdi to my R380 ? { P76 at the moment }

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:53 pm

Don't know exactly how heavy -was saying that the 300Tdi would probably be a bit heavier than the 200.

You would need the bellhousing and input shaft from a 300Tdi Disco to fit a 300Tdi to your RR. There may be some firewall clearance issues with the 300Tdi in a RR but not sure.

Post by **rick130** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:13 pm

The 300 makes more grunt stock than the 200, purely due to extra boost. (15.5 psi vs 12 psi)
Wind the boost up in the 200, and I believe they are much the same.

The last of the 300's ('97 on) seem to have the timing belt issues covered (says I crossing everything) as there was absolutely no wear on mine when last changed at 75 000km. Having said that, I'm taking no chances and changing it in 5 000km @ 135 000km.

The only thing that concerns me with these little 2.5 litre TDi engines is that I seem to be wringing its neck all the time just to get somewhere, unlike the TD 4.2 Patrol we have. So far it has been amazingly reliable, just oil and filter changes, but it's flat to the floor and a fist full of revs (no tacho, so don't really know) all the time. :armsup:

Rick.

Post by **steel** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:51 pm

Does ANYONE have a mass figure for TDI?

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:02 pm

My guess would be 200-250kg. The exact outputs are below. They can be increased a LOT though, and for free.

Land-Rover 200 TDi 83kW@4000rpm 198Nm@1800rpm
Land-Rover 300 TDi 84kW@4000rpm 265Nm@1800rpm

Post by **steel** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:57 pm

outputs increased alot & for free HUH ? please fill me in

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:04 pm

There is a lot of detailed stuff elsewhere on the web. If you go to the LRenthusiastforum and do a search on the Disco forum for 200Tdi performance increase (posted by a John Roberts or something likel that) the thread should still be there...

I have a few mates who worked it all out independently (many years ago)and did everything that the guy above did except fit a supra intercooler (the genuine one is fine).

But the gist of it is... you move the boost pressure sensor to the intake manifold (instead of the turbo housing) so it senses the actual pressure going into the motor.

Both engines are fitted with a Bosch VE type injector pump - there are about 3 different adjustments you can make on it to alter injector timing and fuelling - if you find the pages I mentioned above you can follow links to where you can you can download a manual and pictures showing what to adjust and by how much.

Post by **steel** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:09 pm

Thanks heaps Ben,
And how do they cope in the long run with this mod?
& what sort of increases?

Post by **Bush65** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:16 pm

Steel, if you can't find the thread in the forum that Ben mentioned, send me a pm or email.

A lot of the timing belt issues in 300TDi is due to distortion occuring in the timing cover (near the aircon compressor) that causes the belt to track over to one side of the pulleys and fray the edge. As Rick said this was fixed in later engines. 200TDi had a different timing case.

Post by **ISUZUROVER** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:50 pm

steel wrote:Thanks heaps Ben,
And how do they cope in the long run with this mod?
& what sort of increases?

I know 2 people that did this mod to 300Tdi powered 110's (one was converted to a Disco ZF auto as well). Both of the vehicles were mainly used as long distance touring vehicles on desert trips and the like - each weighted over 3.5tonne when fully laden for a desert trip.
Both vehicles clocked up approx 70000km with these mods with almost no problems before being sold. I say almost no problems, but one of them needed the cylinder head replaced - but this was almost certainly due to the bad batch of "soft" cylinder heads that seems to have been fitted to some of the last 300Tdi's, and not the engine mods.

The performance was very good, and even with the above loads in the desert the fuel consumption was 10-11l/100km in the manual and 11-13 in the auto.

I had a look for the thread I mentioned and cannot find it anymore. I printed a copy out for the Brisbane LR club a few years ago but don't have a copy myself any more. If someone has an emectronic copy they can send me that would be great.

Post by **rick130** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:38 am

G'day fella's

The LRE thread is here

It's saved down in the tech section of the LRE forum.

Rick.

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