Ateco Winch Challenge

Post by **EARSEZOOK** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:59 pm

I am not arguing harnesses, just 6 point cages.

Also unless the vehicle is engineered with the 6 point cage it is not legal to be driven on the road.

If Cams specs are being used, where in their specs do they specify cages for 4WD's. Does this mean that CAMS will be inspecting all cages before all events.

Post by **Aus4wd** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:02 pm

The point is harnesses will be compulsary.

The other point is are harnesses safe with a 4 point cage?

6 point cages can be driven on the road and don't require a engineers report either, they just have to abide road worthy requirements.

Post by **TuffRR** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:22 pm

According to VicRoads guidelines, cages DO NOT have to be engineered, they only have to comply with the guidelines. This applies to 4 or 6 point cages.

Post by **EARSEZOOK** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:53 pm

Fair call TuffRR,

What about running 6 point cages in utes?

How is it possible to fit without chopping panels?
Or does this mean an internal and an external cage?

Post by **Bundytime** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:38 am

How many of these cages do you think will pass Cams spec anyway I have a copy of Cams Schedule J in front of me and i'm tellin you not many will pass. For everyone to have a compliant cage before the Winch Challenge is crap. And who gets to make these decisions at the last minute. I just had my cage modified for the Outback Challenge because the CCDA thought it was a good idea now they want to change it again apparently our money grows on trees.

Cheers chippa 1st Outback 2004

Post by **Juzza** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:22 pm

Drafty wrote:
Britswed wrote:where coming to get ya

Cheers Mal

And we are ready, so BRING IT ON !!!

As long as theres no water!!

Post by **Drafty** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:41 pm

Juzza wrote:
Drafty wrote:
Britswed wrote:where coming to get ya

Cheers Mal

And we are ready, so BRING IT ON !!!

As long as theres no water!!

So l heard :roll:

will have to look into that problem.

Post by **TamsTJ** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:35 pm

Hi Guys, regarding the 6 point roll cage, we are currently seeking clarification from the AWWC (Ateco Warn Winch Challenge) committee and will be posting information on the website (www.awwc.org.au), this thread and notifying competitors, once a decision has been reached. We are endeavouring to get a clarification on this asap.

Post by **TamsTJ** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:17 pm

Hi Guys, I have just received confirmation that you have to be running 'A' pillar protection, harnesses and helmets in the Ateco. This is a safety requirement and is part of the entry into the event.

Post by **Shift Lizard** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:15 am

Hey TamsTJ, who's we and what research has been done to justify these snap decisions. Tell me of one incident in these low speed events that we do that would justify this decision. Don't get me wrong i'm not against a 6 point cage I think it is inevitable that it has to go this way but its got to be done properly ie. CAMS specs and the decision has to be made over time and not by some tin pot group (CCDA' great beginning what happened) that all of a sudden has all this authority with no control.

Clearly not happy

Post by **Shift Lizard** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:36 am

Just a quote from the CCDA website "CCDA have a process in place for to modify the rules in a structured way, and in time we should see a convergence of rules and events."

Post by **Britswed** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:17 am

Shift Lizard wrote:Hey TamsTJ, who's we and what research has been done to justify these snap decisions. Tell me of one incident in these low speed events that we do that would justify this decision. Don't get me wrong i'm not against a 6 point cage I think it is inevitable that it has to go this way but its got to be done properly ie. CAMS specs and the decision has to be made over time and not by some tin pot group (CCDA' great beginning what happened) that all of a sudden has all this authority with no control.

Clearly not happy

Well at round 2 of Xtreme series a nissan lots its front end coming down a steep hill the car went over the long way :cry:

Iam pretty sure he's happy for a full cage,harnesses & helmet.

Cheers Mal

Post by **V8Patrol** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:37 am

Shift Lizard wrote:Tell me of one incident in these low speed events that we do that would justify this decision.

Last years Arteco ... there were several pages of condolences on OL.

Post by **80UTE** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:45 am

I won't have time to get A pillar protection installed before so im asking for my $$$$$ back . Im dissapointed that the CCDA Rules committee agreed on a moratorium detailing that 6 point cages and safety harnesses be mandatory for "A" class event after Jan 1st 2005 and the Ateco Event managment have chosen otherwise.

Wally

Post by **80UTE** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:49 am

TamsTJ wrote:Hi Guys, I have just received confirmation that you have to be running 'A' pillar protection, harnesses and helmets in the Ateco. This is a safety requirement and is part of the entry into the event.

Is this requirment part of the 4 point or 6 point cage as this requires clarification.

Post by **Aus4wd** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:06 am

80UTE wrote:I won't have time to get A pillar protection installed before so im asking for my $$$$$ back . Im dissapointed that the CCDA Rules committee agreed on a moratorium detailing that 6 point cages and safety harnesses be mandatory for "C" class event after Jan 1st 2005 and the Ateco Event managment have chosen otherwise.

Wally

6 Point cages, harnesses and helmets are only proposed to be mandatory for A Class events.
B Class only require 4 point and helmet
C Class no cage no helmet.

Post by **80UTE** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:28 am

Aus4wd wrote:
80UTE wrote:I won't have time to get A pillar protection installed before so im asking for my $$$$$ back . Im dissapointed that the CCDA Rules committee agreed on a moratorium detailing that 6 point cages and safety harnesses be mandatory for "C" class event after Jan 1st 2005 and the Ateco Event managment have chosen otherwise.

Wally

6 Point cages, harnesses and helmets are only proposed to be mandatory for A Class events.
B Class only require 4 point and helmet
C Class no cage no helmet.

Looks like the Ateco managment have decided on there own back, what and when the "A" class requirements are implemented.

Post by **Shift Lizard** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:36 pm

Hey Rock God pull your head in! That unfortunate incident had nothing to do with a 6 point roll cage. Also if you take note of what I wrote im not against any of these regulations im against the way they impliment them.

Post by **Shift Lizard** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:41 pm

80UTE wrote:I won't have time to get A pillar protection installed before so im asking for my $$$$$ back . Im dissapointed that the CCDA Rules committee agreed on a moratorium detailing that 6 point cages and safety harnesses be mandatory for "A" class event after Jan 1st 2005 and the Ateco Event managment have chosen otherwise.

Wally

If thats the case Wally then I apologise for the comments toward CCDA that sounds like a much better way to impliment such a regulation. As far as the ateco goes i'm with you, I'll watch and enjoy the beer.

Post by **turps** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:08 pm

After being a Marshall at the last couple of Ateco's I do see the potential for a major roll over. Some of the competitors have enougth hp to really get some speed in a very short distance (even the Deisel 4B's). Also a slow mutible-roll down a side slope could happen.

As for 6pt cages and utes, the ones I have seen, have the tube going thru the rear wall of the cab (this includes some of the cutdown shorty's).

Post by **Drafty** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:05 am

recieved this last night :armsup:

To All Competitors:

Due to the complexity of safety issues with regards to 4 point
harness's and roll cages a decision has been agreed upon by the Ateco
Warn Winch Challenge Event Committee in consultation with the CCDA
Safety Committee for this upcoming event.

The supplementary regulations will state that a 6 point roll cage
including A pillar protection and 4 point harness's will be
compulsory for the 2004 event.

This decision is based on information gathered from other
organisations such as CAMS suggesting that our existing safety
standards are not aduequate when considering our history of regular
vehicle roll overs occuring in our type of events.

It has been made clear by information gathered that the safest option
for this event to proceed is to have these safety standards as a
minimum requirement for this year.

We understand the short time frame involved, however, our first aim
is your safety, therefore, we would appreciate your support to ensure
these standards are met.

Best Regards,

ateco Warn challenge committee.
28th June 2004

Post by **TuffRR** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:24 am

I notice it mentions 6 point cage including A pillar protection. Does this just mean that the cage has to follow the A pillar or does it have further requirements? I would have thought all 6 point cages would have followed the A pillar.

Post by **Britswed** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:16 pm

Have heard that A pillar protection will NOT now be required,but build em anyway as its coming

Cheers Mal

Post by **XTREME MMM** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:07 pm

I have just finished running the Xtreme Winch Challenge Series. This Series was run for the full year with what is trying to be introduced now plus window nets. I do not see what the problems are with an event organiser bring in safety rules to protect driver & codriver after all it is for your beneifit.

As for this being a slow speed event, you are so wrong it is not funny. What about the side angles & distance up a hill, gravity does tend to take over sometimes. During the year we had several roll overs that could have turned out a lot worse if it had not been for the safety items (full roll bar, 6 point for wagon & 4 point for ute, window nets, helments & full harness) that I had introduced at the end of 2003 Series. After a lot of smoke & wind from the drivers the changes still came in & now no one in the Xtreme Series worries about them.

All I can say is embrace the changes, it will be you that may be saved from body injuries.

Regards David (MMM)

Post by **moose** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:29 pm

XTREME MMM wrote:I have just finished running the Xtreme Winch Challenge Series. This Series was run for the full year with what is trying to be introduced now plus window nets. I do not see what the problems are with an event organiser bring in safety rules to protect driver & codriver after all it is for your beneifit.

As for this being a slow speed event, you are so wrong it is not funny. What about the side angles & distance up a hill, gravity does tend to take over sometimes. During the year we had several roll overs that could have turned out a lot worse if it had not been for the safety items (full roll bar, 6 point for wagon & 4 point for ute, window nets, helments & full harness) that I had introduced at the end of 2003 Series. After a lot of smoke & wind from the drivers the changes still came in & now no one in the Xtreme Series worries about them.

All I can say is embrace the changes, it will be you that may be saved from body injuries.
Regards David (MMM)

hear hear !!

Post by **Webbie** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:00 pm

I dont understand why the six piont cage doesn't take into account the ute or tray mounted rollbar should it not be the amount of points all up as aposed to one cage.BTW some of the vehicle are still street driven :shock:

how do you think these cages for utes will go with the aurthoritys , i recon they will be all over people.make it six for a wagon and 4 for a ute +rollbar CAMS speced of corse .Lets not make this for trailer rigs only. :idea:

Post by **XTREME MMM** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:01 am

You will find that in a wagon or ute the rollbar has to stay within the cab area & NOT GO OUT the back window, hence a full cage from the "A" Pillar is really a 4 point in a ute. (in my Xtreme Events) I recommend that 2 forward braces from the "B" pillar be used in a ute, as well as picking up the upper seat belt mounts.

The idea of the rollbar is to put the driver & codriver into a safety capule, the rollbar should only be mounted to the body & not the frame. Under most state laws the roll bar must be removable (bolt in) & CAMS allow the Cage to be welded in. Apart from this the Queensland & NSW Machinery laws on cages regards tube size is the same as CAMS.

If you are concerned about getting pulled over by Transport, I do not think it will be your internal cage that will be the reason for them stopping you. If it has been done correctly & plated/approved by your State Machinery body you will not have any trouble.

As I say with my Xtreme Events "if you want to come & play you will go by my rules" if you dont pack your toys & go and play with someone else.

"THERE IS NO COMPREMISE FOR YOUR SAFETY"

Regards David (MMM)

Post by **MissDrew** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:27 am

Rollcage thread here http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=21963

Ok so Dave has answered my question for his events but what about the CCDA?

Post by **Drafty** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:52 pm

I dont have an issue with the requirement, but l believe that these things should have been worked out prior to the entry forms being sent out to applicants.

Andrew and l were up at the property last week helping out and l can state that there will be area where high speeds will be reached, and some side angle sections where a roll will mean going over more than once.

Post by **Als GQ** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:41 pm

Whats the go! Is a tray with 2 4point rollbars ok or does it have to be a 1 piece 6 point. An answer from the CCDA or AWWC Committee would be nice :?:

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