lil rock buggy class specs on page 6

[r0ck_m0nkey]

I'm actually starting to like having a weight limit now because it'll stop people going out and just grabbing a zuk chassis and running that.

Do you honestly beleive something using a Suzuki Chassis could actually fit into a 6x4 Box Trailer, that alone would rule it out. Size wise you are talking about a Honda Oddyssey FL250 which could just squeeze into one if the trailer was generous in size, an FL350R certainly wouldn't fit

Some people are missing the basic concept that MADZUKI and I came up with to start with which was to build something that is along the same lines of a normal rock buggy but is cheap and can develop the sport, both in competitors and in how to actually build something and as some people have mentioned, to maybe use this as a cheaper platform to perhaps develop ideas for the bigger classes.

Not missing the idea, just have an undertanding of what works from other forms of motorsport. First and foremost, motorsport on any level is about driving, people starting out don't want to build they want to drive. Starting with something that is not much more then a stock vehicle would promote this. Also being a vehicle that is based around a standard readily bought vehicle, it gives people the the option of once developing their driving skills and understanding of how things work, they can then use the same vehicle and modify it some more to step into Pro Modified class if Rock Crawling interests them, or moving off in other directions and not having to start from scatch again.

You may want to get away from "convention" but unfortunately, it works.

[ljxtreem]

What rocks you gunna drive???????

My buggy is tiny, I bust shit and sometime struggle with clearance with 37's

Not saying its not doable, but if you not driving the big rocks no one is going to want to watch, and I think strength is going to be an issue, my buggy weighs 1000kg, and I bust MQ stuff.

just some things to think about


Mock

[Beastmavster]

I'm thinking the 6x4 trailer is probably going to be too restrictive if you're using 27" ATV tyres. In the end then you're looking at a shorter wheelbase than the average trailbike, and you've gotta sit down in it. My 500cc roadbike on 18" tyres is more than 6 feet long.


Maybe 8x4 trailer? Even that's going to be a touch squeeze with more than 4 feet of tyre.....





To rock monkey,


If you want a cheap car driven class there are already classes out there that cater to lightly modified production vehicles. If these people want to get out and drive, they can buy a sierra and throw on a set of 235/75/15"s and drive straight away.

It's missing the point entirely.


Mock,

It's been suggested before that these things are hardly going to be competitive with bigger buggies and will be using different tracks.

I dont think anyone intends this being some sort of huge spectator sport.


It's like the little league at the footy really - it's there as something people could say "hey I could do that". No-one expects the little leaguers to go and beat AFL superstars..

[Ingenious-Eng]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Quote) I'm thinking the 6x4 trailer is probably going to be too restrictive if you're using 27" ATV tyres. In the end then you're looking at a shorter wheelbase than the average trailbike, and you've gotta sit down in it. My 500cc roadbike on 18" tyres is more than 6 feet long. (Quote)

Yep 6x4 will be difficult, most trail bikes are 7' long, maybe a 7x5 or 8x5 would be better (better balance of width verses length than 7x4 or 8x4). + I measured the height of my rear nobby on a 97 Suzuki DR250 road trail and it's closer to 28 inches than 27", So we need to increase size to 28" so the trail bike tyres can be used as toughnut origanly suggested. 28" also just includes 235/75/15 on sunnies.
A 27" ATV on 12" rim will give more traction than the 235/75/15 due to it's lighter case construction & smaller rim diameter, but ATV gear is not cheap for this size of tyre nor is it common, most importers of cheap ATV tyres are the smaller diameter stuff. Allowing common cheap size bike & car tyres helps peeps get started but wont give them any advantages, they can change to ATV rims & tyres later when more $$ are on hand.

that's my .05 cents worth. (I can't afford bling bling ATV tyres )

[Hekta]

Not saying its not doable, but if you not driving the big rocks no one is going to want to watch

It will still be fun for the people that drive it. Hell I had fun trying to wheel my mate's ride on mower until I rolled a tyre off the bead

This could be something that people would build for their kids to get into.

[G60MAN]

Here is my 11 cents worth.

I think it is a great idea however who is going to be inspecting these buggies that they fit within the specification of the new class.

Who is going to make the buggy tube frame so it is safe. I think anyone can knock up some exhaust tube and RHS and paint it so it looks good. You might mention that they have to have a certificate that mentions what tube bar they used, should they get it x-rayed. Well not even we-rock does that. How much is it going to cost for someone to make up a extra light weight buggy.

The tube might cost $30 a metre. At say 20 metres of tube per buggy. Then what 60 hours to knock up a tube frame @ $65/hr. That’s not fitting a motor, suspension, drive train, steering or even the safety aspects.

So far $600 for tube, $3900 for the buggy to be made up.

Total $4500 so far and I am not even driving yet.

Is there going to be a spending cap on the buggies. You might have someone turn up with a $95000 space frame extra light weight carbon fibre buggy with a twin CT110, locked Subaru diffs 27x9.5x15 swampers onboard air tank with modified air ride shocks for with independently adjustable wheel ride height and were is the fun in that. Sound like another poor me bitch fest from people wondering how they are going to compete against the onboard air adjustable shocks and when you bring in the so that you can only compete with convention coil and/or shock setup then the same group of people are going to bitch again because there friends now are unable to compete because there buggy is not with the classing guidelines.

What sort of terrain are you going to be driving them on. Just around the trails for fun or are we going off the beaten track and playing in rocky gullies and off ledges. Because at the moment I can visualise being strapped inside and approaching a 4 foot ledge and wondering if I am going to be able to climb it or if I am going to drag my skanky ass all over it or if I was going down it am I going to roll end over end. I know I am safe inside the buggy due to having the correct harness and wrist restraints but no one really like falling on there head.


Seeya James

[Ingenious-Eng]

G60MAN,
Adjustable suspension has allready been ruled out way back in this topic, It will all work out in the end even if we are limited to greenfield & rover ride on mowers up to a max of 10 hp and you must retain the origanal cutting deck!
Now that would be fun to watch, we could call it rock crawling ride on's

[Guy]

This sounds like a great idea, I would love to have a go at a class like this..

Things it has going for it..
* Most people can get their hands on a box trailer, and most cars can legally pull up to 1300Kg
* Easy enough to store a one weekend a month type item.

Things against
X All this "custom" stuff sounds expensive..
X With custom stuff if you don't have the design or fab skills you are way behind the 8 ball..



My 2 cents .. I would have a list of parts that must be used, very common stuff .. (This is purely to demonstrate a point, I am not saying this is what should be used, you want to promote innovation, but you don't want to scare away the masses that have no idea where to start) Vitara A arms and struts, mount or mod them as you see fit.

Does it have to be 4wd ?? if so why ?

Why does it have to IFS/IRS ?? surely you can innovate with IFS\live rear (banana diff, Portals from a VW combie etc)..


Most of all you want to ensure it remains accessible to the guy who has a shed, a welder, a grinder and the inclination or the class will never get of the ground...

[chimpboy]

This sounds like a great idea, I would love to have a go at a class like this..

Things it has going for it..
* Most people can get their hands on a box trailer, and most cars can legally pull up to 1300Kg
* Easy enough to store a one weekend a month type item.

Things against
X All this "custom" stuff sounds expensive..
X With custom stuff if you don't have the design or fab skills you are way behind the 8 ball..



My 2 cents .. I would have a list of parts that must be used, very common stuff .. (This is purely to demonstrate a point, I am not saying this is what should be used, you want to promote innovation, but you don't want to scare away the masses that have no idea where to start) Vitara A arms and struts, mount or mod them as you see fit.

Does it have to be 4wd ?? if so why ?

Why does it have to IFS/IRS ?? surely you can innovate with IFS\live rear (banana diff, Portals from a VW combie etc)..


Most of all you want to ensure it remains accessible to the guy who has a shed, a welder, a grinder and the inclination or the class will never get of the ground...

I agree 100%

What about having a standard centre part of the chassis, the driver's cage, that has to be built from a stock design... maybe this would be too restrictive, but you see what I mean, just the space where the driver sits has to be exactly the same in all of the vehicles, and then there would undoubtedly be a few fabricators that could sell them for prices low enough to make it not worth building that bit yourself.

Then you hang all the rest of your parts off it however you like. That kind of covers the safety aspect AND the cost aspect in one go.

Just an idea. I wonder how much you would have to chop off an LJ50 to get it to meet the class requirements... hmm... stock kerb weight is around 950kg.

[Wooders]

Whilst it would be cool to see IFS/IRS development - I think it's detremenatalto the objective. Also if someone wants solid axles they pay the weight penatly or they get creative.
Same with engines - Electric has some real advantages - but also has some bug downfalls and this includes the wight/size of batteries.
IMHO if you want people to be creative and you want it genuinely affordable:
1. Keep the weight limit low (500kg absolute max),
2. I like the 6x4 box trailer limit - infact I think you could remove the tyre limit because a set of 40" iroks would be longer than the trailer anyway
3. Keep the safety stuff there - but I'd have the engine/diff/suspension free....then people need to THINK.....

Also I don't think it should be designed as a spectator class....they too quickly escallates to sponsors to company backed teams dominateing and then the entire principle is lost.

[G60MAN]

Don't get me wrong I would love to see a competitive sport get off the ground were your basic competitive vehicles cost around 10K and can be carried in a 8x5 box trailer and can be towed by our 1.6 Vitara.

Here is my thought on some parts.
Subaru brumby front and rear diffs and hubs maybe the power steering as well.
1L sierra motor
Sierra transfer case with reduction gears
29x8.5x15 swampers

I think the sport needs some real solid guidelines not just a theory of build anything and bring it along.

Why would you not want it to be a spectator sport. Don’t you like the feel of the crowd encouraging you further to push yourself and machine past what you would normally.

Seeya James

[Tiny]

I think it needs to be simple, I like the idea of
bike wheels and tyres
IFS / IRS
Engine Limit
Size Limit......not to small guys, some of us a rather tall and 6 x 4 allowing a decent aproach and departure angle could make it diffcult

I reckon since the bannana benders are gunn go ahead with an idea, anyone that wants to start in sydney I reckon we should get together.

I have two old bikes, an XT200 and a DT175, the 200 wuld be a good start for a donar engine, means we have brakes and tyres / wheels, plenty of shocks etc to play with, maybe twin for the front and the rear coil over from the rear mono strut, have chains and sprockets etc to use still have a seat from the GQ floating around and a 4 point harness all we would need to start is a welder to start a frame

[sierrajim]

Here is my thought on some parts.
Subaru brumby front and rear diffs and hubs maybe the power steering as well.
1L sierra motor
Sierra transfer case with reduction gears
29x8.5x15 swampers

Sounds heavy. By the time you add the tube for the chassis, links, driveshafts etc

[Guy]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

["CANADA"]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

For those saying a ATV tire is too much check the links provided...$60 is expensive now?? I wish my car tires cost that much!!!

[Steve F]

I really like this idea of small buggy crawlin and would be keen to knock something up with a big single cylinder trail bike engine, aircooled. I also like the idea of the 500kg weight limit and the bike tyres. I'd be going with a chain drive to the front and the rear and run a centre mounted sprocket with homemade tubless axles and a simple ball and socket joint at either end. There's even some good ideas on the RC cars that could be used and scaled up that would cope with the power and weight we're talking about

Seriously even if this doesn't get off the ground I'd consider puting something together for the engineering fun of it anyway.

Cheers
Steve

["CANADA"]

Just mocking up some stiff in the garage and i think 2500mm chassis lenght total...have to pull my diffs out first tho and make sure things fit where i want

[Guy]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

For those saying a ATV tire is too much check the links provided...$60 is expensive now?? I wish my car tires cost that much!!!

I wanted to know how well the rims stand up to side loads, as they would not normally see these on a bike (a bike leans into corners etc)

I never mentioned anything about $$$

[r0ck_m0nkey]

To rock monkey,


If you want a cheap car driven class there are already classes out there that cater to lightly modified production vehicles. If these people want to get out and drive, they can buy a sierra and throw on a set of 235/75/15"s and drive straight away.

It's missing the point entirely.

It's not missing the point, when terms like "entry level" are thrown around. As it simply isn't that. Cheap does not equal entry level, easy and simple does. One of these things may not cost much to build, but thats for someone to do it themselves, if anyone else who does not have fabricating skills wanted to join in, they would have to pay someone to build, we all know that once that happens prices can escalate quite easily and the cheapness is gone. You've instantly made it more difficult and more expensive for that kind of person to get into.

[Ingenious-Eng]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

For those saying a ATV tire is too much check the links provided...$60 is expensive now?? I wish my car tires cost that much!!!

I was the one complaining bout the costs of ATV tyres madzuki, You show us the website were you can buy 27"x12"x12" ATV tyres for $60inc GST in Aussie dollars, then show me where we can get 12"x12" ATV rims for approx the same cost of sunnies.

The challange has been laid down

[G60MAN]

I agree with you rock_monkey if you don’t have any fabrication skills then you are paying big dollars unless some fabricators take it onboard to get the sport started and build some basic entry level buggies. It is just like the offroad racing buggies you can get one from someone pre-made and running for a lot less then paying someone $65per hour to build one custom but I guess because I am just a commoner and not a fabricator I will just have to sit on the sidelines and hear about it.

And no the trail bike tires don’t like running on low pressures. You would need internal or external bead locks

Seeya James

[r0ck_m0nkey]

I agree with you rock_monkey if you don’t have any fabrication skills then you are paying big dollars unless some fabricators take it onboard to get the sport started and build some basic entry level buggies. It is just like the offroad racing buggies you can get one from someone pre-made and running for a lot less then paying someone $65per hour to build one custom but I guess because I am just a commoner and not a fabricator I will just have to sit on the sidelines and hear about it.

Not to mention modifying. If you can do the fabricating yourself, if something isn't quite right, you can simply cut that bit up and change it and experiment with things. Go back to the poor guy who isn't as skilled and payed someone to build it, he is then stuck with that design.

Hence back to my suggestion of something based around something readily available, it doesn't have to be one particular thing, it just makes it more accessible to all which would actually make people interested.

[Beastmavster]

It's not missing the point, when terms like "entry level" are thrown around. As it simply isn't that. Cheap does not equal entry level, easy and simple does. One of these things may not cost much to build, but thats for someone to do it themselves, if anyone else who does not have fabricating skills wanted to join in, they would have to pay someone to build, we all know that once that happens prices can escalate quite easily and the cheapness is gone. You've instantly made it more difficult and more expensive for that kind of person to get into.

IMHO it IS still missing the point.

Fabrication is NEVER cheap. Anyone who cant do it themselves certainly should not be bodging something up themselves, and there are EXISTING cheaper classes to play in.


Eventually once a few of these are out there, maybe they will be able to buy someones second hand one. Dont try and cahnge the rules to let them use car stuff to disadvantage those who are trying to come up with the idea.

There are quad racing events, there are "stocker" classes in many 4wd clubs for those who cant make their own. These are perfect for those types of people without the mechanical skill. This is exactly why they exist.

As such - if your idea is to try and basically use all car bits out of a sierra, like you suggested earlier, they should buy a suzuki sierra and find an appropriate suzuki club to play with like vehicles.


From a safety and insurance situation, there are serious risks involved in having heavy car based vehicles playing in the same class/area to smaller buggies like proposed and you'd never get such a competition off the ground.....

Motorcross bikes dont do werock, hence 4wd cars shouldnt do lil'rock.

[Beastmavster]

I agree with you rock_monkey if you don’t have any fabrication skills then you are paying big dollars unless some fabricators take it onboard to get the sport started and build some basic entry level buggies. It is just like the offroad racing buggies you can get one from someone pre-made and running for a lot less then paying someone $65per hour to build one custom but I guess because I am just a commoner and not a fabricator I will just have to sit on the sidelines and hear about it.

And no the trail bike tires don’t like running on low pressures. You would need internal or external bead locks

Seeya James

If you cant build it yourself, you can still buy one of the prebuilt frames from here:

http://www.edge.au.com/buggies_hypersprint.htm


Or you can wait until people sell their own to build a newer and better one.


Realistically, how can you expect to be competive in a class which is developing as it goes IF you have no fabrication or mechanical skills?


It's like expecting Joe Average can build a V8 supercar or a Formula 1 car, and then he bitches that he cant afford it.

[Beastmavster]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

For those saying a ATV tire is too much check the links provided...$60 is expensive now?? I wish my car tires cost that much!!!

I wanted to know how well the rims stand up to side loads, as they would not normally see these on a bike (a bike leans into corners etc)

I never mentioned anything about $$$

Rims would stand up ok to sideloads, but I suspect ATV rims or trials bike rims would be better.

[r0ck_m0nkey]

IMHO it IS still missing the point.

Fabrication is NEVER cheap. Anyone who cant do it themselves certainly should not be bodging something up themselves, and there are EXISTING cheaper classes to play in.

The whole idea and concept has been flogged as cheap and a beggining point. So now it's changed to something completely different.

[Beastmavster]

A 27" ATV on 12" rim will give more traction than the 235/75/15 due to it's lighter case construction & smaller rim diameter, but ATV gear is not cheap for this size of tyre nor is it common, most importers of cheap ATV tyres are the smaller diameter stuff. Allowing common cheap size bike & car tyres helps peeps get started but wont give them any advantages, they can change to ATV rims & tyres later when more $$ are on hand.

Agree on this - people would probably start on cheap trailbike rims and tyres and move to ATV rims and tyres when money permits.


You never know, we may see proof of the whole wide versus skinny agreement and the trialbike tyres may be better in some circumstances.


As for the car tyre stuff... I kind of agreed at first but now I'm dead set against it.... but I can see straight up then people are going to push to use sierra solid axles to go with the car wheels and tyres.


Anyway, 235/75/15 is almost 29", so they would be banned anyway.


My position on this is becoming more and more simple. More bike parts, less talk about using car parts.

In the end making a tube frame and hanging car bits off it is already catered for.

For those who cant make their own bits, buy some existing stuff (like edge or oddysey frames) and then modify, or wait until it takes off - if it does then there will soon be a cottage industry of builders making parts to class rules.

[Beastmavster]

IMHO it IS still missing the point.

Fabrication is NEVER cheap. Anyone who cant do it themselves certainly should not be bodging something up themselves, and there are EXISTING cheaper classes to play in.

The whole idea and concept has been flogged as cheap and a beggining point. So now it's changed to something completely different.

Cheap for those with the ability to build stuff, either by themselves or their mates. Buying a pipebender and a decent gas MIG is going to be more expensive than buying a 1 litre sierra, or buying an old trail bike or trials bike, or a go kart.




Anyway, cheap is a relative thing. How cheap is building a buggy for WEROCK, and blowing $10k on building a tough engine for it, and another $3k on lockers, and another 1k on rockhoppers, and another $3k on tyres, and then buying a big 4wd as a tow vehicle, and a tandem trailer?


It's cheap for a custom fabbed class. Motorsport is never cheap. If people dont understand that, well honestly too bad for them.

["CANADA"]

How well do bike rims stand up to large side loadings ??

For those saying a ATV tire is too much check the links provided...$60 is expensive now?? I wish my car tires cost that much!!!

I was the one complaining bout the costs of ATV tyres madzuki, You show us the website were you can buy 27"x12"x12" ATV tyres for $60inc GST in Aussie dollars, then show me where we can get 12"x12" ATV rims for approx the same cost of sunnies.

The challange has been laid down

Used... You can even go to your local Bike shop and ask for the tires that they swap off the new quads for customers for cheap. As for rims wreckers

[Beastmavster]

I think it is a great idea however who is going to be inspecting these buggies that they fit within the specification of the new class.

Whoever runs events. Until there's professional events who is going to care if it's 2" too long?

Who is going to make the buggy tube frame so it is safe. I think anyone can knock up some exhaust tube and RHS and paint it so it looks good. You might mention that they have to have a certificate that mentions what tube bar they used, should they get it x-rayed. Well not even we-rock does that. How much is it going to cost for someone to make up a extra light weight buggy.

Why should more stringent safety restrictions be applied to a cheaper class than WEROCK, where heavy high horsepower vehicles will be competing?

The chassis wont need to be as strong with potentially 1/3 the weight or less.

The tube might cost $30 a metre. At say 20 metres of tube per buggy. Then what 60 hours to knock up a tube frame @ $65/hr. That’s not fitting a motor, suspension, drive train, steering or even the safety aspects.

So far $600 for tube, $3900 for the buggy to be made up.

Total $4500 so far and I am not even driving yet.

If you have to pay to build the buggy then motorsport is not for you.

You can buy existing professionally frames from edge for less than half the price you are talking there, so why wouldnt you do so and then modify it to suit?

If not, someone with the fab skills will probably happily start building them in their garage for $25 an hour + materials anyway.

Is there going to be a spending cap on the buggies. You might have someone turn up with a $95000 space frame extra light weight carbon fibre buggy with a twin CT110, locked Subaru diffs 27x9.5x15 swampers onboard air tank with modified air ride shocks for with independently adjustable wheel ride height and were is the fun in that.

Because the rules will specify things like

No car tyres.

No adjustable ride height

Etc.

No-one will have built one or bought the $95000 worth of parts in the two days or so this thread has been going.

If they have then they're a fool and they deserve to have wasted $95k.


Eventually there may be an unlimited class lilrock.
But first you'd have to get some of the lower classes sorted out.