TOPERI CHALLENGE (comp to replace woodpecker)

[Tuff Events]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Who wants them there??

& what is your definition of a buggy?

[nissan_onroids]

I loved Toperi last year . It was the first event I have driven my truck to the 100 point marker at any event & I managed to do it twice once with help by a winch & once with no assistance and the best thing was it was the first time I didn,t break anything . I think the Bronco is now strong enough , I just need to learn how to drive it .

What about the poor bugger behind you.We got to break something for you just so you didn't feel bad.This year we have a winch& membership of the Bronco recovery team

[Slunnie]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Which answers the buggies at Toperi question.

[Strange Rover]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Which answers the buggies at Toperi question.

So how do you stop them from turning up with their rego and engineers cert?

[STIKA]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Which answers the buggies at Toperi question.

So how do you stop them from turning up with their rego and engineers cert?

If they have gone to the effort of rego and engineers cert, I don't have a drama with them competing.

[STIKA]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Who wants them there??

& what is your definition of a buggy?

Sorry Pete, I thought you were for the buggies


My opinion/definition of a buggy is, full tube frame.
Truggy any thing that has tubing as part of the chassis between the diff housings

[Strange Rover]

& what is your definition of a buggy?

Easy...something that looks like a buggy...generally is a buggy.

Probably easier to define what is a truck...

A truck has...

Unmodified, origional dimension chassis rails from the centre line of the front axle to the rear of the B pillar...(body swaps allowed)

Full firewall and floor pan to the rear of the B pillar...clearancing allowed for engine/ gearbox/ transfer. Clearancing not allowed for chassis rails.

Trucks must have bonnets, outer front guards, grill and headlights and doors...no boat siding (boat siding is when you taper the sides of the body back towards the chassis...you know...like what buggies have)

Then I would go for tuff trucks 80% rule on the front and side profiles but I would only allow for material removal only...no scaling or narrowing allowed...trucks must retain headlights and origional lines of bonnet, front guards and grill.

Trucks must retain at least 25mm vertical component of front guard around wheel arch...this means you can cut your front guards for more clearance but some vertical portion of the origional guard must remain...when trucks loose the front guards they really start to look like buggies IMO.

There is probably other stuff as well but basically buggies generally have no chassis and no body panels that let them sit very low with lots of suspension travel.

Real trucks tend to sit heigher to clear big tyres and big suspension travel while still retaining origional body work.

Performance wise the difference between the two is very little if you run them on tuff truck style courses...its just that the real trucks look so much better doing it IMO. Put a low COG buggy on the same courses...add rear steer and portals and they can just drive where ever they want with very little care.

Sam

[Slunnie]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Which answers the buggies at Toperi question.

So how do you stop them from turning up with their rego and engineers cert?

Bearing in mind that I'm not privy to this type of discussion in event management, but as you've said above in defining what it needs to be rather than what it can not be which is a more efficient control method and closes the the engineering saga by having internal and consistent controls.

How does this then compare to events like TT is perhaps another consideration as Toperi attracts the same or similar vehicles rather than one offs for certain events etc which gets back into the whole building program again - but it would be nice to have consistency and maybe throw in a TT type championship over a couple of events such as Toperi and TT etc.

[MrsForby]

*applause to Sam*

Mr. Rover, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, for what a "real" (your words!) truck is. I was planning to go spectate at Worlds too.. Was annoyed when it got canned, but can totally understand losing motivation.

Mr. Antunac, I think it's a shame WEROCK never got the numbers, so don't get me wrong there. From where I sit and look, Willowglen appears to draw a crowd other than just families and friends of competitors, and it's a top comp too. The atmosphere is great and the drunken hoon factor is minimal.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but I think if Competition organisers could get together and draw up a list of what's accepted, it would help to stamp out the grey area for many competitors. Don't get me wrong, I think it's important for people to push the boundaries in order for our sport to grow. (When I say grow, I mean get more people into it, not push the "trucks" until they're all on the verge of being buggies)

I enjoy watching buggies, and I enjoy watching "real trucks", but I honestly don't like the idea of them competing on the same courses and against each other. It just makes it far too difficult for those with less $$$ and a daily driver to get in there and have a go, and isn't that what 4WDing is based on?

In short, keep "trucks" and buggies apart for competitions.

I'm sleepy and rambling, Sorry.

[Slunnie]

I agree fully Pete,

So why have buggies at an event that isn't designed for them.

Which answers the buggies at Toperi question.

So how do you stop them from turning up with their rego and engineers cert?

If they have gone to the effort of rego and engineers cert, I don't have a drama with them competing.

Thats it, everybody builds to the rules, but the vehicles have probably outdeveloped the rules for what the original intents were.

[XTREME MMM]

Hey David, what you say is true i don't want to see people destroy their rigs, i want to see them live to fight another day! Hey i compete as well i was in Toperi, Nissan Trials, Woodpecker and Willowglen for the past 3 years, and i know what breaking your vechile feels like. But the point i am trying to get across is that people want to see excitment, when the underdog or the full body truck struggles but finally makes it across the line. All i'm saying is that buggies aren't as crowd pleasing as the more standard vechiles and i think thats why they don't have as big a following![/quote]





I agree.

I did not think that you could be that cruel.


Yes when I ran XRCC (it was only the insurance that killed it, apart from lack of entries) it was great to see a full bodied truck compete and more crowd friendly. But it also unreal to see what a buggy can do. I think the crowd have to relate to a vehicle.

So as the format is not broken and the Toperi has been a success using the format it uses, why change.

As for crowds the ARB XWC has continued pulling good spactator numbers over the past 10 years and is still growing.

It all comes back to another buggy person giving it a go as an event organiser and not wanting someone else to do it for them. You guys need another "Sam" who is prepared to put in a lot of hard work.

Cheers
David

Cheers
David

[albey]

If you don't think buggies are exciting, then maybe you should attend a buggy comp. ( if there is another one ) If the course design is difficult, then you really see some awesome action. Its when the courses aren't hard enough is when it is very boring!![/quote]


Hey Pete, you are right and thank you for proving my point people wanna see action, that's why when a buggy comp is harder there is more action ie roll overs, two wheels in the air and big numbers. People want to see a spectacle, they wanna go to work on monday and say i saw this bloke launch over a rock on 2 wheels and nearly destroy himself not he crawled it like it wasn't there!

[1MadEngineer]

& what is your definition of a buggy?

Easy...something that looks like a buggy...generally is a buggy.

Probably easier to define what is a truck...

A truck has...

Unmodified, origional dimension chassis rails from the centre line of the front axle to the rear of the B pillar...(body swaps allowed)

Full firewall and floor pan to the rear of the B pillar...clearancing allowed for engine/ gearbox/ transfer. Clearancing not allowed for chassis rails.

Trucks must have bonnets, outer front guards, grill and headlights and doors...no boat siding (boat siding is when you taper the sides of the body back towards the chassis...you know...like what buggies have)

Then I would go for tuff trucks 80% rule on the front and side profiles but I would only allow for material removal only...no scaling or narrowing allowed...trucks must retain headlights and origional lines of bonnet, front guards and grill.

Trucks must retain at least 25mm vertical component of front guard around wheel arch...this means you can cut your front guards for more clearance but some vertical portion of the origional guard must remain...when trucks loose the front guards they really start to look like buggies IMO.

There is probably other stuff as well but basically buggies generally have no chassis and no body panels that let them sit very low with lots of suspension travel.

Real trucks tend to sit heigher to clear big tyres and big suspension travel while still retaining origional body work.

Performance wise the difference between the two is very little if you run them on tuff truck style courses...its just that the real trucks look so much better doing it IMO. Put a low COG buggy on the same courses...add rear steer and portals and they can just drive where ever they want with very little care.

Sam

one really easy way of seperating classes is to have the diffs come from the original vehicle being entered, so mogs have mog diffs, cruisers run toyota diffs, nissan run nissan diffs.
oh and the chassis and body bit as above ^^^^

XRCC rules worked really well, due to the fact the "modified" class was exactly that - a modified road rig. Full floorpan and firewall, rego, 37" tires and engine and diffs from that brand of vehicle. Outlaw was pretty much anything else....

[Strange Rover]

Thats it, everybody builds to the rules, but the vehicles have probably outdeveloped the rules for what the original intents were.

I think that is what has happening and will continue to happen.

Back in the day...like 2 or 3 years ago...the "outlaw" trucks were the cool crazy modified trucks and everybody loved them. Now what is happening is these buggy based rigs are entering as "outlaw" trucks (mainly because tuff truck encouraged them to be built).

It seems to me if you want the buggy based trucks not competing against the real trucks then you need another class...and that would be buggies.

So you set your criteria of what a real truck is (and to do this you would have to have a really good look at what everybody has already built) and then whoever turns up at the event that doesent fit the criteria you put them in the buggy class.

Cause at the moment if sombody brings something to the event that doesent fit the percieved idea of what a truck is what can the organisers do??? Basically nothing cause there is no easy way to exclude sombody from the event (meaning it would be very hard to tell sombody they carnt compete cause they dont have front guards and their truck really looks like a buggy)

Have a buggy class and you can easily clean out the buggy looking trucks out of the truck class.

And for the record...I think the majority of buggies would have a ball on these tracks...most of the rockcrawling buggies are small and low to the ground and have small tyres and dont have portals...I think alot of the trucks would definately show them up. The buggies definately wouldnt come close to performing as well Pete new 40 series truck or Mals bush rangie.

Sam

[Coighty]

If people need an explanation of what seperates a buggy from a truck it's usually the ones trying to push the rules, i think theres only 1 solution thats obvious run CCDA rules for vehicle classing, the rules are very clear as to what you can and can't do to fit into a class push the rules and go into the next class, if they don't have a class for you to compete stay at home and read the rules properly next time. This way you know when you turn up to a comp with CCDA rules you know what class your in before you leave home.

[turbo gu]

If people need an explanation of what seperates a buggy from a truck it's usually the ones trying to push the rules, i think theres only 1 solution thats obvious run CCDA rules for vehicle classing, the rules are very clear as to what you can and can't do to fit into a class push the rules and go into the next class, if they don't have a class for you to compete stay at home and read the rules properly next time. This way you know when you turn up to a comp with CCDA rules you know what class your in before you leave home.

Tuff Truck runs under CCDA dosen't clarify anything. They just excluded some bits

[Toperi]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

[STIKA]

that sounds good to me

[tuflox]

what date is it on?

[turbo gu]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

It looks good BUT don't make it too hard as it will be hard on you guys running the event and also allows errors in scoring etc.

With what you have suggested what happens with different spec cars in teams? Last year i competed in my GU ute on 37's with on minor type mods, eg lift,lockers but was teamed up with a Rangie ute with coilover f/r and 40 inch tyres how would that effect our time this year?

Some clubs competing have a wide range of vehicles.

I say RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG Dont change it!! Woodpecker never had classes.

[brighty]

what date is it on?

Check out the thread and you'll find the answer But is at the end of Nov

[blade 929]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

sounds good but at the same time don't penalise the modded trucks to much or us smaller cars will lose any real bragging rights , i'd rather have our team come 10th as we did last year knowing we were up against big modded rigs than come 3rd only because the big rigs were penalized so much they didn't get a chance to run the final course .

don't follow k rudd and try to bridge the gap between the haves and have nots to much , its all about competion , just do what ever and will all still come anyways , its that good a comp .

jai

[turbo gu]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

sounds good but at the same time don't penalise the modded trucks to much or us smaller cars will lose any real bragging rights , i'd rather have our team come 10th as we did last year knowing we were up against big modded rigs than come 3rd only because the big rigs were penalized so much they didn't get a chance to run the final course .

don't follow k rudd and try to bridge the gap between the haves and have nots to much , its all about competion , just do what ever and will all still come anyways , its that good a comp .

jai

I agree. Last year we got 7th(yes my team mate did have 40's coilover) but i only got snatched by him once and was very happy with our results and i drove the ute home

[ET4Runner]

I agree. Last year we got 7th(yes my team mate did have 40's coilover) but i only got snatched by him once and was very happy with our results and i drove the ute home

And that's the best bit

[DIRTY ROCK STAR]

I think the penalty/handicap system is gold! well thought out.

is there any penalty for winching this year? or just the time loss?
otherwise it could be a highmount winch-a-thon?

[Shady]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

I love it !! Bring it on , everyone come & have a ball at the best event in NSW. On Ya Canobolas Club.

[3.8BUNDY]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

Sounds Excellent
Everyone gets to play and to keep it interesting everyyone has a chance of winning

[CanberraMav]

I think that is a good system and evens out the playing field well

[Coighty]

If it ain't broke don't try to fix it. Last year was excellent, you just need to re-fine what you had and get your guys up to speed on the rules especially whinching as there was some dangerous stuff going on last year.

[Tuff Events]

After a commitee meeting we have decided that if its registered you can enter the main comp, we are still looking into running a second class just for unregistered vehicles.

What we are proposing to do this year is have time penalties on a team depending on modifications. For instance, All teams will have 28 mins to do all 4 stages. Rear steer -4 mins, Coilovers Fr/Rear -3 mins, Hydraulic Suspension -2 min, 42" Tyres -2 mins, 40" Tyres -1 min etc. We will work out a full range. This would mean Team OPW would only have 17 mins to complete all 4 stages ( the 2 cars). Last year his team took 20.5 mins.

The more standard teams will have all thier 28 mins, time to rock pack, squeeze into tricky bonus garages etc.

What do you all think of this system?

Sounds Excellent
Everyone gets to play and to keep it interesting everyyone has a chance of winning

Sounds Great... But I have a few questions..
If you have rear steer but do not want to use it, what happens with the time penalty?
If Hydro Suspension is not used, eg, locked out so I can not use it! again, what would happen with the time penalty?